It's back: Morning Depression feeling...and worse

I like it jingle I agree rowantree just prentend your an actress then change the subject. You won't feel any worse than you would normally. Be brave. Think of us all urging you on.

if you can do it !

Yes if can do it Rowantree I agree with Jingle and Gilly

Excellent idea and post jingle !

Go for it Rowantree

Rowantree May I suggest an alternative strategy? You would need to pull all your acting abilities into play, but I think you could do it

When you visit your m-I-l, be the one to first mention the new baby (put on a brave smile - you can do it!). Actually be the one to instigate the Skype call. Be the one to go overboard about how beautiful the baby is. Outdo the lot of them with your cooing and ah-ing. Say how glad you are that the mum had such a good Labour. Don't mention your own labour, or your own baby at all. This strategy could take the wind completely out of your m I . l' s sails. And you will feel good. Because you will have won. You will be the mature, sensible kind one. Which she is not.

Devious perhaps, but needs must........

Rowan l have been off site for a while due to hols. I understand where you are coming from. I think the mental health system in the UK sucks because of severe lack of funding which is why only the most desperate cases get treatment.

DDS has also been fobbed off and it is a constant worry for me that her severe anxiety issues and depression are only treated by repeat prescriptions from her GP and private therapy which she pays for herself. She has also lost friends and an important relationship due to her feelings of jealousy & inadequacy. I try 2 help as much as poss just as your DH does for you. It is heartbreaking.

I hope you find a good therapist . it may take a while as the first one may not help but it will be worth the money to improve your way of life and feelings.

[Flowers]

Stansgran, that's an excellent idea. I'm just not sure I'd have the courage to tell her - I've got used to trying to hide how I feel in front of her andnI suppose I fear ridicule and judgment (I remember once, when we were driving her back from Norwich where we'd been visiting DD1 for the weekend. I am emotional, and I hate saying goodbye to DD1 because it's often ages till we see her again. So, for a while afterwards, I cry on the journey home, and then after a while I am fine again. On this occasion MIL was really scathing, wanted to know why I was crying and sneered, pointing out that DD1 only lives in Norwich, ' Well, think how I feel then with Karen (her elder daughter) living in Canada!' It made me feel shame and also anger - what right did she have to tell me what emotions I was or wastn't allowed to feel?
Unfortunately I wasn't assertive or far-thinking enough to point out to her that we are all allowed to feel as we feel and I just took it, seething inside with rage I couldn't express. But I am loth to bring her with us again to visitn DD1!
However, your suggestion is certainly something I can build up to saying at some stage. I'd just fear her reaction to it as she can be very judgmental.

I think you should show your MIL your last post and explain to her that it makes you remember all too vividly your own experience hearing how other births have gone. She would then surely have the delicacy to keep off the subject when you are around. She doesn't necessarily know how you feel . She may think that it is all in the past and over and done with whereas it is still as fresh and real to you as the day it happened .She may also feel that you would be delighted for another woman to have a successful and joyous pregnancy. Just tell her very clearly that it is too painful for you. She may well be stunned that all she has said has had this effect on you.

Oh Rowan what an ordeal you had and what mind-numbingly crass comments you received from people from whom you would (and should) have expected so much more.

My Mother went through a different experience - a stillbirth - and the Ward Sister suggested that my mother should write down everything that had happened and how she felt etc because putting it down on paper might provide a 'release' for her emotions. It's different from speaking about it, or probably even from typing it, and she did find it helped, although the pain never went away completely of course and my Mother still talked about her right up until she died. So you're definitely not alone in having these overwhelming thoughts and feelings.

Don't forget that you've also had to cope with all the stresses, both physical and mental, of dealing with a baby/child that needed surgery etc, as well as bringing up DD1. It all takes its toll on you.

I don't have a magic solution, I only wish I did, but perhaps 'talking' on GN can provide an outlet for you. There are many well-informed and wise people on here, so I hope you find some solace.

Minimouse, you're so right that I didn't have the chance to grieve for my 'perfect' baby. DD2's birth was horrendous - at least the aftermath was; it was an elective c-section because she was an oblique lie AND feet first (typical!) and the young doctor attending went white when he saw her and clearly was out of his depth in dealing with it. In fact I felt for him - he was shaking as he brought her to show us, asked DH to sit down (DH had noticed nothing at that stage) and then told us there were several problems and abnormalities. We listened in a haze of disbelief; it felt as if it was happening to someone else. All I could say was, 'What did I do?' because I thought it was my fault. The theatre sister's response was, 'Oh, we've got a great plastic surgeon - you should see the messes he's had to clear up!' and that was the start of our journey...nobody knew what it was, doctors came to see her but nobody sat down with me and held my hand and let me cry or asked me how I was feeling. I didn't think I was allowed to grieve. We were so frightened; didn't know whether she'd be mentally affected, what the future held, what she would be able to do...our 'normal' life with our little family felt shattered to smithereens then. I was in hospital with her for nearly 4 weeks - all we wanted was to be reunited with DD1 and be a family, and DH found it incredibly difficult to bond with DD2 for a while because he just saw her when he visited us in hospital. I didn't want to go home without DD2 though because I knew she needed me, and I wanted to breastfeed her (which proved incredibly difficult but we did it in the end). Once home, things weren't much better - multiple hospital visits to try and sort the problems out, and nobody offering emotional support for our little family. Well, nothing unusual there, I guess!
I'd better stop as I could go on and on about the lack of support from the medics and the ignorant comments they often made....then there was our local curate, who, seeing DD2 for the first time when I brought her to the toddler group because I helped with the music there, quipped, 'What shall we do with this little one, then? Rub her out and start again?'
That hurt beyond words - as did many other similar, but I had to get on with it and work at giving her the very best life possible and make sure she always knew she was very dearly loved, as much as her sister.

So no....guess it still feels raw, after thirty years. How pathetic that must sound, and I know there are plenty of mothers who go through far, far more difficult births and whose babies suffer more than we did. We survived as a family, but it's left its mark on me, though I can't say it's the cause of my mental health problems now because I've never felt 'ok' about myself, not really.
You weren't tactless at all: I just hope that mothers whose babies are born with problems are treated with far more compassion and empathy than I was, and that things have improved, but I suspect this is far from the case.
GillT57- I'm not exactly active, but I do try to get out into nature as much as possible, and gardening helps - at the time - though it doesn't stop the horrible feelings or the ensuing guilt. How old is your son, and does he talk to you about how he's feeling? I know so well that 'early hours' anxiety about one's child.....somehow, the wee small hours magnify everything, don't they? If he's communicating his feelings to someone - whether it's to a counsellor, friend or to you - that is a positive sign. I hope his university are keeping an eye on him. Are you able to communicate with his personal tutor if you are worried? That can be tricky because students are regarded more as adults, so confidentiality can be an issue, but if they know that depression is flagged up, then hopefully that awareness will help somewhat and reassure you too.
I hope he continues to improve - it sounds very positive that he's taking steps to help himself

I'm probably being over-simplistic here, but it seems that your labours and births were incredibly traumatic and then to have a baby with Goltz must have been an added issue. Is it possible that you needed to 'grieve' for the births and outcomes that you had naturally expected, but didn't have? They've obviously had a massive impact on you and, regardless of how much you love your DDs, their arrival wasn't what you had hoped for. I hope I haven't sounded tactless, but events that we think we've coped with can have such a profound effect for such a long time.

I have read all of this posting, and dont wish to sound trite, but I truly feel for you and for everyone suffering with mental illness, the silent epidemic as they call it. I recognise many of your symptoms in myself, but not so severe, and my son is showing signs of depression which worries me in those awful early hours of the morning when I wake up. I do however, think that many of us have the same thoughts as you do, resentment, ill will towards others etc., but the difference is that you are brave enough to admit to having these feelings. I have read many reports that long walks outside in the fresh air have helped other people to deal with these terrible feelings, Stephen Fry for one. I dont wish to offend by suggesting something simplistic, but you may find that it helps to distract you, and exercise such as walking raises the body's natural endorphins which make us feel better. My son is at University and the team there have been very good, and suggested gym attendance as part of his treatment. Predictably, it took him some time to do it, but he admits that he feels heaps better, enjoys the feeling of achievement and sleeps far better.

Thanks, Brendawymms. I do feel at my worst in the mornings but it can persist much of the day at times. And I am on an antidepressant which was helping a little (though it certainly wasn't a 'happy pill' by any means!). I had begun to come off them as the ones I take have a side effect of substantial weight gain, and I'm already in the obese category and struggle with it. When I got to the lowest dose, I was feeling worse emotionally and realised it was stupid to come off them shortly before going away on holiday, so I decided to up the dose again (after emailing my psychiatrist). This is now what's happening, but it will take a while for the increased dose to have full effect again. So now I have to wait and ride the storm. Once we return from holiday (which I am dreading as I don't want to spoil it for DH - I know, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy) - I can't see my psych till mid June to discuss whether I can appeal the decision to close the door on my treatment or take a deep breath and find a therapist for myself privately somehow.
I guess I've had both: the life events and the 'depression from inside' - it's pretty darned persistent, though, and particularly the last 8/9 years. The split with my ex-friend, (with whom I had a small business) in 2008, didn't help, though I've tried really hard to move on and get out to meet other people and do different things.
I'm hoping I will feel better for when we go away in just over a week's time, but possibly not.

I haven't really explored any kind of therapy rowantree I'm sorry your feeling so low. It sounds to me as if your M.I.L plays mind games. Playing One relative off against the other. My M.I.L does this. It gets her lots of attention especially from people like us who want approval or to be accepted or even thought of as nice. The more critical she is the more we try to please her. It's clever, it's manipulative. I'm wise to her now so not as vulnerable. A few months ago the family had arranged a get together in a local pub for lunch. The logistics were a bit complicated and the plans went astray nothing serious it just delayed us for about 10 minutes. Well she did her usual and started to criticise. I think after 38 years I became exsberated . I told her if no one else was bothered why should she be. Her resort was along the lines of ' well I am" I told her if she felt like that she could (using a terrible swear word) go home. I wish you could have seen her face. I was shocked at myself but not as shocked as when two hours later in the garden I got a full apology. All my married life I have run after her. often at the expense of neglecting my own family. My husband has been asking myself and his sister why her approval is so important to us. It's only now I realise it's not. But better still I think she now realises it too. I'm free. (((((( hugs))))) I hope your visit isn't as bad as you anticipate and you feel a little better soon.

I am going to be simplistic here, and apologise in advance, generally people who are at their most depressed in the morning and probably feel better as the day goes on really benefit from the use of an antidepressant as the depression comes from inside. People who feel worse as the day goes on are, by and large, reacting to some life event and benefit most from talking therapies. Rowentree go and see your GP and make a fuss if you can and get an antidepressant even if it's the old one to tide you over until you see the psychiatrist.
I apologise if others have already said this but it's worth repeating.

Gillybob, I sometimes feel like that with the phone, but not always - it can catch me unawares. Goes back to phonecalls about DD2 - being phoned to be told she'd had an accident and injured her back and was in hospital in Wales (we're in South London)....or the many occasions she'd taken an overdose, had been admitted to a psychiatric ward as an emergency...even though that's years ago now, it still has the power to provoke fear, so I can well understand your reaction.

When the phone rings and it's a nuisance call, I've psyched myself up to answer, worrying that it's bad news (all in the space of split seconds!) and the offending caller then gets the rough end of my tongue and some choice expletives! Either that or I quietly place the receiver on the table and walk away for a while, just to waste their time.

Woke this morning feeling particularly low and obsessing about MIL, about the new baby and how I am going to deal with my feelings adequately. I got myself into a terrible state, didn't want to get up even and now have a thumping headache from crying I feel very ashamed because there is really nothing to cause such a reaction in me and I can only suppose it's part of my mental health problems and try not to think of myself as just a horrid person because of it. I don't have the hope of therapy any more as the NHS have closed the door on me, effectively, so now I feel consigned to the scrap heap as someone who is either beyond help or not worth it.
I am persevering with Mindfulness because I am hoping that will gradually bring about some kind of acceptance. It's a skill that should be taught at school really - if I'd been taught as a youngster, I'm sure I wouldn't be feeling as bad as I do now.
Gillybob, you could probably use mindfulness skills to help with your phone anxiety and KIora with the post fear too. Facing and acceptance are probably two of the hardest things to achieve. I didn't know about it when I was friends with my 'ex friend', but I guess it's pointless wondering what might have been - we all have to start from where we are (I keep having to remind myself of that!) Hugs to both of you.

Perhaps your "friend" like mine Rowantree needed you and all of your insecurities/worries/misfortune to make her feel better about herself. Good for her if she could see "each day as a new day......." Not all of us have that luxury do we? It would be interesting if they did meet. I wonder who would win the battle of "my dad's bigger than you dad... " then?

Absolutely Kiora with me it's the phone. I am so used to being given bad news (my mum, dad, grandma... etc) that I dread the home phone ringing. Sometimes (when I am feeling particularly down I can just stand and stare at it almost willing it to ring so I can have the power of not answering it) blimey now I sound like a fruit loop! But it's true.

Kiora, it's not stupid - it's something that holds fear for you, for some reason. Did you ever have reason to fear the post? Could it be a worry that it would contain some bad or unwelcome news and you fear you wouldn't be able to deal with it as you would wish?
It's easy to feel shame for what we fear and what distresses us, and to assume that others would be scornful and judge us for it. I know that applies to me.
I am fearful of my MIL talking about her new grandchild and of my OH's sister continually sending him photos and updates about it. It's making me quite agitated and upset and I feel ashamed at how it's getting to me. I could never admit this to MIL or to anyone else in the family apart from my OH and my daughters. Have you confided how you feel to anyone else, Kiora? Sharing one's fears might not make them disappear but it helps a little to feel less isolated. You might find a sense of relief having aired your anxiety on Gransnet. Most of the lovely people here are non-judgmental and very kind, which is just what you need when you are suffering fear and shame. Hugs to you.

I just wondered if any of you along with the feeling discussed here have really silly fears when your feeling low. I become frightened of the post. Most of the time it's just a dislike of it. If thing get worse it can also make me feel nauseous. If I get really very low I have been known to hide it. How stupid is that.

Wow, Gillybob, I too had a friend rather like yours and we were friends for about 25 years. It hurts, doesn't it, but it sounds as if you made the right decision for you. How awful - my ex-friend was rather more subtle about her one-upmanship, but used to talk endlessly about her wonderful kids and grandkids as if nothing else mattered, and if I tried to talk about my worries about DD2, who went through hell as a child with her disability and mental health issues, she told me I worried too much and I should be like her - each day a new day, not allowing anything to bother her, etc. She constantly patronised me when we traded together (we had a small biz dyeing and selling threads and fabrics) and kept introducing herself to others rather smugly as the Bossy One of the partnership which infuriated me because it made me look as if I was weak and unimportant. She even brushed off as not very important when DD2 was sexually assaulted - and chose the time of the court case to email me (not tell me in person) that she didn't want to work with me any more. She then sent her OH round to me to heavy me over and demand that all loose ends were tied up by a certain date because it was convenient to her!

So I hope your ex-friend and mine get to meet and are very happy together!

Sunseeker- I don't really know, though my sister in law (the one I get on with!) has said she says she enjoys her days out with us (she never says so at the time) and we also take her away for a few days for a break every year, and she shows very little enthusiasm then either. We rely on Sis in law to give us any feedback. I don't recall her saying anything complimentary about me though. Zoning out sounds a good idea, if i can do it politely, but being a woman I'm MEANT to be interested in other people's babies, so she wouldn't like my lack of enthusiasm for her newest great-grandchild! I'm going to have to make a few appropriate noises, however much it grates, but I know there will be comparisons with ours - already the new baby is apparently feeding better and is more placid/sleeping better than my daughter's little one was, so I'm bracing myself!
Katyk, I had to smile at your post about the 'object of your annoyance' - it does help to know others feel similarly, though I still feel I react badly to things most people wouldn't do.

Smug people are my least favourite type gilly and your words to rowan above are very true

Oh KatyK that did make me .

My (ex) friend was terribly smug and as I said a bit earlier she seemed to feed off my (many) downfalls! Grrrrrrrrr

Rowan you really mustn't think that you are the only person who feels the way you do. We all have terrible thoughts sometimes and anyone who says they don't are telling lies fibs ! Some of us keep these thoughts tucked away, some of us judge ourselves. You are not a bad or a terrible person at all. When I am feeling particulary miserable or down, and nothing seems to be going right, the last thing I want to hear is someone else's happy, joyful news. I think its human nature. Some people are more sentitive to other people's feelings.

Does it make you feel a bit better Rowan knowing that others have had these intense feelings? It makes me feel slightly better after having spent a few hours with the object of my annoyance at the weekend. (I won't bore you with the details again). I don't know how I got through it without slapping her. . She is SO smug. She's got this look on her face which says 'don't you wish you were in with the in-crowd like me - look everyone loves me.' And she had the cheek to hug MY granddaughter. I felt like saying 'get your own granddaughter to hug'. I feel better now that's out! Sorry ladies.

I think you are right gillybob - my mother is a world champion when it comes to manipulation! My brother deals with it a lot better than I do - but it is easier now she lives the other side of the world!

Perhaps your mother was just trying to keep you both on your toes sunseeker by playing both you and your brother off against each other. I know all about "zoning out" as have to do it regularly or my family would drive me completely nuts !