Patrick Stewart on assisted dying

I had wondered about having DNR tattooed over my heart, but my family seemed to think that was excessively eccentric, though to me it seemed to make perfect sense!

Do not resuscitate is, for me, the most important directive. My father had been suffering from heart failure for some months and arrested watching TV one Sunday evening eating a bowl of strawberries and cream. What a comforting memory that would have been but no, mum called the paramedics who managed to start his heart again but he never regained consciousness. We spent 3 days on a death watch in CCU with no privacy and my poor father stripped of his dignity. His brain had been deprived of oxygen for too long and he lay there and fitted for 72 hours. I couldn't cope with watching this proud man reduced to this. It was awful.

My late MIL, some 10 days before her death. suffered a dialysis crash and staff had to use CPR to resuscitate her. The next 10 days were dreadful, she developed agitated terminal delirium and had to be sedated every time she came to the surface. All FIL wanted to do was put a pillow over her head to end it all.

A natural end had come for both of them. I just wish this had been allowed to happen.

Broomstick, so sorry I had not seen your previous post.

Here in Switzerland, people can subscribe to a Society called EXIT and become a member (Swiss or foreign, but have to be resident here)- and then, after being a member for about 6 months, can ask EXIT for assistance. A trained volunteer would then visit, and interview you, alone, to ensure this is REALLY what you want, and that no pressure is born to bear by relatives, etc. If the volunteer is totally satisfied- then a date is made- and plans for where and how. In bed, in the lounge- the garden even if private- music, family or a friend present, pets- etc, etc- and a date made. On the day, the volunteer will again interview the person alone, to ensure above, again, and make preparations- and then will give the potion to the member to take themselves. The volunteer will wait for death, which is instantaneous, then call the police and the doctor- who will confirm death. The procedure is filmed, just in case, but the film not kept once police releases the body for burial or cremation, etc.

Members are advised to make their wishes known to their doctor and solicitor, who may be consulted, but this is not necessary.

The new storyline in East Enders is so so stupid, don't you think? Assisted dying is for people who are unable to proceed by themselves, having made the decision that they do not want to continue to live due to a terminal condition.

So why would anyone ask children or grand-children or friends to be invoved in the deed- when they could perfectly well act upon it quite 'simply' by themselves- as granddad (played by Tomothy West) in East Enders. All he needs to do is get a box of paracetamol and a bottle of whisky- hardly in short supply in a pub! Why on earth put his children or grand-children in the position where they would be prosecuted if they help. Unbelievably stupid of the writers!

I have always been in favour of assisted death, and this very informative and thoughtful thread is very interesting, and adds much to the overall discussion.

pulsetoday.msgfocus.com/c/13jBecaLXTgRh0fy4I77vWS

About when a GP knows you are dying.

granjura how does it work in Switzerland? there are always objections here but being forced to suffer to the end is an abuse in itself I feel.

Absolutely. And I imagine this strong and courageous Lady would not have wanted to be helped to die. And that is good, and wonderful. Wonderful too that she had a husband who was prepared to sacrifice all to help her in her recovery. How old was she btw? Very different to fight when you are in your 40s, 50s or even 60s- than someone who has lost the will to live, perhaps their spouse and do not have children and grand-children or close friends to help them through this. My mother, for instance, had all of the above- but she had had enough- a wonderful life to the age of 80- then lost her eyes, her legs and all her strength, both physically and emotionally after 10+ years of trying to be positive about the above. Any doctor who would have examined my mother aged 90+ (as said 10 years after all the above happened)- would have been able to assess she was at the end of life, totally incapacitated (apart from her mind) and truly, really did not want to continue. Although in the eyes of the new proposed law in the UK, her case would have been dismissed due to the absence of a terminal illness, rather than terminal life. She lived another 4 years of utter misery, despite great care and despite the love of her husband and all of us.

Most doctors know how to use common sense and humanity, even though it is not an exact science. In the case of Debby Purdie (Motor Neurone if I remember correctly) all the doctors knew she would suffocate to death in the next few months of 'life'- and the poor woman was terrifed.

If both Doctors agree that, in their experience....

Then what, Granjura?
The point I am making is that if a physician so eminent and experienced as the Consultant Oncologist at Bart's and the London has the humility to say that he can't accurately predict when a patient will die, it must be impossible for others.

I know a woman who was 'given' less than 6 months to live, 10 years ago. Her husband took early retirement to care for her.
She's alive and well today.
Miracles happen.

If both Doctors agree that, in their experience....

Agreed- but surely here the wishes of the person would help to determine the outcome.

Nobody has here Jane- but you did quote figures earlier, which it seems were greatly exagerated as the poll of doctors mixed the two- and squewed the results, it seems.

Well, there's the rub, Granjura. How do doctors decide someone 'has only about 6 months to live'?

There's an article in this weekend's Telegraph magazine entitled '6 months to live'. It is neither for nor against assisted dying, but there are interviews with two people with terminal illnesses, and a woman whose father died if leukaemia.
There is also a contribution by Prof Tim Oliver, Consultant Oncologist at St Bart's and the London.
Amongst other things, he says "When it comes to terminal diagnoses it's often not until late in the day that I'm certain about the timescale. And while I'm always honest about the situation from the start, I never try to put an exact number of weeks or months on things, because I'm not God."

Incidentally I don't think anyone on Gransnet has spoken in favour of euthanasia, as opposed to assisted dying, have they?

An interesting article in the current issue of the BMJ- stating the differences between euthanasia and assisted dying- and how the facts and figures about doctors' opposition to the proposed bill have been distorted, by deliberately mixing the two.
As the atuhor says, it should be made clear that NO attempts are bieng made to introduce euthanasia through parliament in England and Wales. Assisted dying would only be for people in a terminal phase of illness, with 2 doctors having to assess that the patient only has about 6 months to live.

It concludes:

In summary, (...) CareNotKilling organisation as an organisation are trying to cloud the debate n assisted dying with misleading falsehoods, irrelevant statistics, and unnecessary scaremongering.
The ariticle is written by Dr Ray Tallis retired Professor of geriatric medicine, who is the Chairman of Healthcare Professionals for Assisted Dying.

Thanks broomsticks. I am not able to go to the Conference as I live abroad. Am lucky that in my country (Switzerland) the law allows one to choose when to die in in one's own home.

granjura hope the conference went well. I am so vehemently in agreement with the need for a change in end of life choices after seeing the deaths of friends and family.

Indeed

Our sons were upset when their dad told them what he wanted, but by the time he died they knew why he had told them, and were very supportive. Our youngest son was with us when he died.
It's a time when you can do without family wrangling.

It is also very important to talk to your OH, next of kin, children, family- about how you feel about being on life-support for a long time, being brought round is there is a high risk of severe brain damage, etc. Also about organ donation, etc- and aks them to RESPECT YOUR WISHES. I've known family members to make their wishes totally clear, and then relatives went clearly against patient's wish and ask for medical staff to keep machine on, refuse organ donation, etc.

That's what the living will is for. You can put exemptions in. You can say that if you have severe brain damage and if two doctors agree that there is no chance of improvement or recovery, then you want no intervention.
Whenever we went to a hospital that we had not been to before, my husband took a copy of his with him to put in his files, even if it had nothing to do with his brain.

Ah sorry, I am talking about request for assistance with assisted dying- not about DNR, etc. For this, yes, it is good to have a living will registered with your GP, so that s/he knows. Even better to talk about it with any treating doctor if ever going into hospital. Must say I am not ready for DNR yet. I would not want to be on a life support machine beyond 1 week or two- but if I had a heart attack or minor stroke, I would certainly want to be brought round and given the chance to fight the fight, at this stage- unless it was clear I had been out too long and likely to have suffered severe brain damage.

That's interesting, granjura. How do your GPs and other medical people know what you want in a situation where you are not able to tell them?

Ooops, such a shame it is not possible to edit anything here.

In Switzerland, a living will does NOT have to be signed by GP and registered with them. it is advisable, but not compulsory. If you are a member of EXIT, then they will assist you (on the provisos explained in previous posts)- and your living will can help confirm how you feel - but no more.

of course- I meant in the final act.

Can GPs be kept out of the equation? A living will has to be signed by your GP, and a copy left with him/her and anyone else concerned with your health, just to make sure they know what you want.

Totally agree that GPs should be kept out of this equation. Although, most doctors in the past have been involved with possibly increasing the dose of morphine in latter stages of terminal illness, to aleviate the pain and at the same time knowing it may hasten the end. It is well recorded that King George's life was shortened by more and more morphine. And it was totally accepted and acceptable- until very recently when the culture of life by any means without any quality, became an obsession and also the suing culture. Shipman was also a tragic turning point.

Exit in Switzerland only involves the GP in determining the severity of illness, and check that the patient has registered their Exit membership with them, and their living will. Trained volunteers are the ones to assist- some are retire doctors and nurses, most of them are not.

Hope that some of you will take time to watch the Dimbleby lecture on the subject, full of touching humour and humanity. Whichever way you feel about the issue.