Feel like I've betrayed my principles..

I'm not sure that I see the deterioration in many aspects of the NHS as quite so calculated to a long term agenda "MiceElf." But perhaps I am being naive. What did happen is that MC inappropriately introduced competition and private tendering into a service for ideological reasons without thinking through the consequences. The fragmentation and inefficiency stems directly from that.

And EU dictats about working hours have wrecked medical education and caused chaos in GP services.

Add in the fact that medical advances stretch the service to its absolute limit, and you finish up with the imperfect service that we now have.

Just people bodging about I think, rather than a hidden agenda.

But it may become essential for there to be some people paying now or the service would grind to a complete halt.

There would be no need to introduce charges if the current funds were properly used.

10bn wasted on failed IT system

A scandalous waste of public money .... of which I'm sure no-one has been held accountable.

I would do the same, I did many years ago. The only way I could have my gallbladder removed on the NHS was with 2 days notice which didn't give me time to arrange childcare so I dumped my principles (which I no longer have) and went privately at the same hospital with the same consultant. If I had gone NHS I would have gone in the night before and stayed 10 days but, going privately I went in on the morning of the op and was out in 5 days. I have no idea why everything takes up more resources if done by the NHS. Another bugbear of mine, why do they wast money on TVs in waiting rooms?

I don't understand why paying for a service is considered wrong. Surely that means that there is more for those who don't pay? We don't feel the same about anything else we buy do we? It is not wrong to go to a hairdresser rather than cut your own hair. It is not wrong to buy a huge television because someone else can't afford it. Hope I haven't opened the floodgates.....................

I do not see anything wrong at all, in going PRIVATE, surely is one"s own business.

Having said that , not everyone can afford , I do see that !

I certainly would not pay for hospital food because over a year ago, I had a knee replaced and the food was so awful that I lost 8kg in 8 days. Yes, I needed to lose weight but I also needed nutritious food and that was sadly lacking.

I was at my GP surgery yesterday and on the dot matrix system it stated that there were 125 missed appointments during July. That is around 6 a day missed and I had to wait a month to see the GP that I wanted. In my book it would be 3 strikes and you are out.

I've been mulling this over as I went about my work and came to the conclusion that I would wait for the NHS partly because they are relatively good in this area and partly because we do not have health insurance, nor sufficient rainy day savings.

Then it struck me that if it was any of DH, DDs or DGC who was in constant pain or was being shuttled from pillar to post, I would be prepared to re-mortgage the house, take out a loan, rob a bank - whatever it took to ensure they were helped as soon as possible. Principles would not come into it.

What Granny23 said.

Hope you're getting on well today, susieb755

It always annoys me when the same consultants do NHS and private work, although I know they have the right to, and when you can see them sooner if you pay than if you don't. As the wife of a retired GP in a practice where nobody did private consultations, I think that if you work for the NHS, you should do so for all the hours you work, whether full- or part-time. It'll never happen though.

<Dons hard hat>
Wheniwasyourage Suppose after studying as an undergraduate for six years, in the process incurring debts of at least £60K, you then worked all the hours God sent for the NHS as a junior doctor, probably 80 hours a week minimum, and during that time you took many difficult exams at your own expense. After about 15 years of this grind you get a consultant post.
You work 10 sessions (5 days) a week for the NHS. Has anyone the right to tell you what you do in the evenings or at weekends?

The other issue is the right to practise to the best of your professional ability. There are many constraints within the NHS in terms of availability of drugs and services - as well as having a detrimental effect on patients like susie it must be enormously frustrating for the professionals involved, to see patients suffering and be unable to do much about it.
Professionals who have made many personal sacrifices to achieve their qualifications have the right to practise without those constraints if they so wish.

Susie - certainly go private. Not sure if this point has been made already, but your condition could be getting more severe with time, and needs to be assessed properly ASAP.

janeainsworth some years ago I worked in a hospital. Consultants would finish their NHS clinics at 3.30 and move straight on to their private patients. My impression was that the NHS list was rushed through sometimes. Certainly, for one Consultant I knew at least, a rather offhand manner changed to charming at 3.30!

Hear hear Jane although I only worked in the NHS! I agree with you.

I can't see what principles have to do with it? Just because we have the NHS [even if we can't always get to use it for delays] doesn't mean we have to use it does it?Does the Queen feel guilty?Or Richard Branson? No, and why should they, or any of us. The NHS will be pleased if we don't use it! If anyone can pay to have themselves sorted out in hospital, then do it.

I agree with Miceelf and Riverwalk.
Everybody complains about admin in the NHS, but since the start of privatisation admin costs have gone up from 5 to 15%.
nhap.org/whats-wrong-privatising-nhs/
I also agree with wheniwasyour age. Doctors should choose to work in either the NHS or private. Perhaps the reason a surgeon missed my husband's broken heel was because he was in a hurry to get to his private patients in the afternoon.
My sister had a hip replacement done in a private hospital by the same surgeon who would have done it in the NHS hospital. Because it was done on the NHS, when she had problems she was told to go to the NHS hospital. They took the money for the operation, but not for any follow-up. That must be wrong.
NHS Choices must cost, too. Anywhere where you get a choice means two companies/hospitals at least competing for your "business". That costs extra.

I don't blame you at all susie. You must do what is best for you. I would do the same. We have been extremely lucky here in our dealings with the NHS over the last few months. My DH is being treated for prostate cancer at the moment We have had fantastic service from the NHS. We have never had to wait for more than 2 weeks for appointments for blood tests, biopsies, scans and have never had to wait more than 2 weeks for results. If appointments been made for a certain time, we have never been in the waiting room a minute after our appointment time. Everyone we have come into contact with has been friendly and lovely. Hopefully this will continue as his treatment goes on. I have been in the waiting rooms at times when people have been complaining about long waits, but I can only speak as I find. The NHS has been great in our case.

petallus- totally agree- some Consultants do the minimum for NHS and leave junior doctors to deal with patients and then go on to their private practice. And many mix the 2 systems in a totally unashamed way- using NHS theatres, staff and facilities when it suits them- then pull patients back out to private, etc.

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but the new Health and Social Care bill seeks to combine the two. Is this what you want for the NHS?
www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/09/former-nhs-carers-intensify-strike-over-pay

I notice that Careuk does not pay any tax in this country.

This reminds me that once when my husband went to see a consultant neurologist in York Hospital, there was a pile of requests for insurance purposes on his desk. He said he was refusing to fill them in because he was not being paid extra by the NHS, but anyone who wanted to pay him would get it done. So if you could afford to pay for it, you were okay. Didn't think that was right either. The neurologist was being paid enough by the NHS.

Insurances paid for insurance reports- not the NHS nor the patient (well they did indirectly eventually I suppose).

Just an example. A friend had been a private patient for always- but when she needed an histerectomy, the Consultant she saw privately took her off his private list and put her on NHS. She still cut the operating list to a large extent, had her op on the NHS, then whipped out after a few days back onto private. Etc, etc.

So Rosesarered, your statement would be true if both systems were separate, but they are definitely not.

Susieb- could luck with the op and don't feel you are betraying anything- I would do the same if I was put in your situation (but totally understand why you feel ambivalent about this).

Granjura, I was telling you what the consultant told us, not what we thought. He said he would not do it because the NHS would not pay for his time to do it.

I spent a few weeks working at a brand new private hospital which was built next to the NHS one. Talking to other people working there I found that they had very few resources for emergencies and if anything went wrong the patients would be rushed across to the NHS one. It rather put me off the whole concept of private medicine.

Also if we had to pay for our treatment DH would have been dead for 4 years now because not only would we not be able to afford the thousands of pounds his treatment has cost, but we wouldn't even have been able to finance the tests that led to the diagnosis.

Well of course not, Deeda, but if health care was privatised we'd all have to have insurance to cover it. It wouldn't suddenly be sprung on us.

We could all give examples of the excellent care we or our relatives have had under the NHS.

As happens in America, eh, Ana?

Yes, Deeda, that's what happened in York, the Bupa hospital was built in the next street to the NHS one, so it was easy to transfer patients if anything went wrong with their hip/knee operations.

Ana at our age we would be uninsurable or it would cost a fortune because few of us have not had previous surgery or ongoing medical problems now.