The disappearance of the NHS

The NHS is also paying for privatisation.

"The costs of maintaining market mechanisms in the NHS have been conservatively estimated at £4.5 billion a year – enough to pay for either ten specialist hospitals, 174,798 extra nurses, 42,413 extra GPs, or 39,473,684 extra patient visits to A&E. "

Open Democracy website.

Thank you teetime that sounds a little bit like what a friend of mine, who had a long career as a medical secretary used to say. She complained about the endless changes for change sake, new office furniture, computers and computer systems. It sounds as though, internally, the NHS is/was ripe for mismanagement and corruption. Still not sure that privatisation will change that though!

Teetime A very good post.

Annie I am not sure if you mean there is no hygienist available at all at your dentist's surgery or that you have to pay for seeing one now.
I am not sure that I think that kind of treatment should be available on the NHS, but agree that it is a good idea for a hygienist to be available at all surgeries, if possible There is one at our local NHS surgery (private charges apply) and at the private ones locally and the choice of whether or not to see one is ours.

Likewise many other 'life-style choices' which seem to be available nowadays on the NHS such as breast enhancement, gastric bands etc.
Before anyone mentions obsesity being a major cause of diabetes etc, it is a life-style choice to be fat and people have the option to lose that weight without expecting a quick and expensive fix from the NHS.
I know how easy it is to put on weight and how difficult it is to lose it, by the way.

Time to remove the NHS from the sordid amphitheatre of politics and recruit the finest brains to quietly look at it and recommend what has to be done to save it. In the meantime creeping privatisation must be stopped. S'easy!

Perhaps a group of gransnetters.
The trouble is that we would probably never agree.
Just like politicians - but not so expensive, arrogant or daft.

Not a bad idea though papa!

National Health Action Party, papa.
Lots of them are ordinary people like us; some are doctors and nurses.
Some are pensioners.

Obesity may be the result of poor lifestyle choices but if fitting a gastric band helps people to lose weight, it saves the NHS money in the long run. Of course, it would be better if people were able to lose the weight naturally, without the need for surgical intervention, but if they can't what would you do - just let them get bigger and bigger? Fern Britton, Ann Diamond, Vanessa Feltz and Jenni Murray have all struggled with their weight but have finally resorted to having gastric bands fitted.

I think NHS breast surgery is only done if a woman has completely lost the shape of her breasts or if her breasts are so heavy that they are causing health problems.

I expect quite a lot of illnesses are partially the result of people's less than perfect lifestyles. I can't see how it would be possible to decide whether, for instance, someone has had a heart attack because they smoke or because they eat unhealthily or because they're couch potatoes, etc. etc., or because there is a genetic predisposition - or a combination of all or some of these factors.

rosequartz It's a long time since there's been a hygienist at my dentist's surgery. The dentist took this over for a while and used to offer a scale and polish, I think this used to be free and then you had to pay for it. Now, you can only have this service by paying for it.

I've always thought that the hygienist service was important, he/she has time to talk to you about gum and mouth health in general, to show you how to brush and floss if you don't know, and will clean and polish your teeth. Gum health is so important for general health and if not paid attention to leads to many more problems later. It seemed to me that the hygienist left the dentist free to do the nuts and bolts of fillings and more.

Looking after your teeth is probably one of those things that gets scant attention from many people, just like not eating properly or taking exercise. I suppose it's then impossible to avoid becoming 'political' because you have to say do you think the state should look after people and their health or do you say 'it's up to them' but of course with the latter, the state picks up the bill at the end of the day anyway, when poor choices, (if you want to call them that and think people have adequate information, time and money to make those choices) lead to poor health outcomes.

I do agree with Eloethan that illness has many causations beyond life choices though and I'd add environmental causes too. The whole of the south east has very bad air pollution levels and so there are many more cases of respiratory illness, especially amongst vulnerable people (the young and elderly) than there would be if we all lived in the mountains. Chance would be a fine thing!

Does anyone else think that arms companies should not be tendering for the NHS? Shows what a sad state our NHS is in now that Lockheed Martin are even considering it.

act.sumofus.org/go/6696?t=3&akid=8238.1669823.bItTSB

I notice the goal is 10000 signatures for this sumofus petition. I hope they get millions.

If Lockheed Martin ever do get their sticky fingers on the NHS we shouldn't expect very much from them...their record as regards the new RAF F35 Joint Strike Fighter is not impressive...Will It Fly? The Joint Strike Fighter is the most expensive weapons system ever developed. It is plagued by design flaws and cost overruns. It flies only in good weather. The computers that run it lack the software they need for combat. No one can say for certain when the plane will work as advertised. Until recently, the prime contractor, Lockheed Martin, was operating with a free hand—paid handsomely for its own mistakes. Looking back, even the general now in charge of the program can’t believe how they got to this point. (From an article by Adam Ciralsky, Vanity Fair - September 2013). And Cameron dumped our Harriers and aircraft carriers in favour of this lot. I wouldn't place my sensitive NHS bits in their hands and hope that the government can be stopped from doing so. Mind you, are Serco or G4S any better?

In my view the privatization frenzy that will ensue following TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) is certain to mean the wholesale breaking up of the NHS - and who will be the beneficiaries? The powerful and wealthy. None of the companies that are waiting in the wings to bid for NHS contracts are doing so because they want to see the NHS shaped to meed patient's needs, but because they want to make a profit.
Lockheed Martin's president: “Our diverse portfolio of products and services, investment in future innovations and dedicated workforce give me confidence that we’ll continue to deliver outstanding results for our customers and return value for our shareholders.”
That would be the $10.7 billion in profits they made from just the first quarter of 2014 then.

I presume everybody else has heard about the £2 billion bribe to the NHS that Osborne is going to announce next week?

This is the first time that I've seen all the money wasted in one link. It's quite scary.

nhap.org/12174/

On the other hand, we could probably find more, but it's worrying enough as it is.

What concerns me is the pockets that £2bn will land up in. I've had a bone density scan and an MRI scan in the past month, both with private companies contracted to the NHS.

What Osborne should do, is remove all the PFI debts from the NHS budget. He could do the same for all the public sector. These are toxic debts, like the loony mortgages that caused the banks to collapse. They wouldn't write them off because of upsetting all the commercial enterprises we are in hock to. And they fulminate about Wonga!

Thanks for that link, durhamjen. Very informative and very frightening

anniezzz09 - just for you (and anyone else who may be interested)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6g1I37_r1E

That's a fine idea, * LilyG *, he could use all the fines on the banks and a tax on them to do just that. That would, as you say, enable the NHS to start off again with a clean sheet. I would also apply similar debt write-offs to the PFI debts hanging around the necks of many state schools and colleges. Perhaps Osborne will announce these things on Thursday. Should we hold our breath?

What a legacy was left to us by Labour.

Sharp intake of breath...

Must go and stir the gravy with my wooden spoon .....

but it's bloody true

I'd duck rose! I thought about saying that!

Going to check the dinner. Back later.

Just announced: Osborne to spend £2bn+ on the NHS for one year, because of the forthcoming election, no doubt. But dolloping money in is not the answer. It will just disappear into the black-hole of the privatised parts of the NHS who will put their hands out greedily. Are the Tories now showing signs of real panic?

lilygran Yes, paying off the PFI debts would save a huge amount of money and would make a lot more sense than all these other initiatives.

Blair was stupid entering into the PFI deals but I believe his record demonstrates he has more in common with the Conservative party than with traditional Labour. He and his "New Labour" people (many of whom are unfortunately still around) were trying to match the Conservative party in being especially accommodating to big business and the finance sector (which the Conservatives had always criticised them for not doing).

Whilst I agree that it was a disastrous decision by Labour to enter into these contracts, if you can remember back to before Labour got in and the Conservatives were in power, hospitals and schools had been allowed to fall into terrible disrepair and were not fit for purpose. The NHS was falling apart at the seams and there were almost daily news reports about people waiting ages for consultations and then sometimes years for surgery.