Non-political Save our NHS

I took that way too absent which is why I posted a reminder as the first seeds of degeneration were being sown.

Good point Anya.

Surely the future of the NHS is a political issue; it cannot be otherwise. I took the OP to mean not a party political issue. Otherwise this thread would have degenerated, as so many others have, along blind party lines.

Reminder of OP....non-political look at the NHS please.

No, soon. The only thing they are hampered by is their rich friends who pay them to help them.

Yes.
I think that if the Conservatives dont get to grips with this within the next 4 years, they may well not get into power next time around.
I dont know though, whether they are hampered by EU law. And tax laws of different countries. And to what extent.

In order to be the best we would have to copy the best, and stop greedy people fleecing us by not paying taxes. We would need to ensure that some people do not get bonuses worth more than most of us earn in a lifetime of working and then secrete the money offshore so they do not pay tax on that money.

Are you up for that, soon?

One of the things that annoys me is that every time something is changed by the government it is always to make the UK the best in the world. I find myself wanting to strangle whoever says it. What's wrong with just being very good?

Health - quality of care, even lives.
Education - I would take the best please.

Though I think I get your point. But still, the best please, realistically. If at all possible. Within reason.

One of the things that annoys me is that every time something is changed by the government it is always to make the UK the best in the world. I find myself wanting to strangle whoever says it. What's wrong with just being very good?

The NHS was very good, even excellent at one time. Research using figures from 2011 showed us being ranked 1,2 or 3 among 11 in OECD figures.
However, this was before the government brought in the new Health and Social Care bill and decided to copy the US which was ranked 11th out of 11.

Over 111,000 have signed the government e-petition to get rid of Jeremy Hunt. The new site has only been working for two days!

Thanks Margaret it is good to have an opinion from a gran not in the UK.
I now realize that I was wrong thinking the NHS is the best in the world, and it is a salutary lesson to realize that.

Of course it would be better to do it properly learning from other countries and stop this bleating about the NHS being the'best in the world' Like the UK legal system I just can't hear it anymore. Other countries don't brag all the time about being best. They try to improve. Put that to bed and start out to make a working system better with more freedom for the doctors and more efficiency and more responsibility by the sick people for their own health. Make them pay sometimes!
Looking at it, it seems an impossible task and you would need a larger majority than David Cameron has got.

But 2% of the GDP is perfectly achievable. But that is assuming that is what we want. I am not suggesting that we should spend more, but I am saying that we need to be realistic about what we want from our health system and how much we are prepared to pay. The two may well be incompatible and so we must face up to what can be achieved with what we are prepared to pay. It may be that at 9% we will have to be satisfied with a less than best or even good health service. It is an argument that needs to take place.

If we are currently paying 9%, and have to find another 2%, that is roughly 22% more needed than we are paying currently into the NHS budget.
That is a colossal figure.

More thinking on the subject

I would very much like to keep the money we pay into the Health service out of the government hands, because we know that they find it very tempting to misuse the money. It would also have the advantage that we would know exactly how much was going into the Health service, and then we may well be prepared to pay more for the service.

Well soon those health systems in Europe who appear to be both well run and with good outcomes pay on average about 11% whereas we pay about 9%.

I agree with 1. 2. and 4.

3.Having looked at some of the systems whitewave, how much more?

Been really good to hear from grans in other countries and their experiences.

One other argument I keep flogging so would be grateful for thoughts on the subject is

If as seems likely this government will continue to tinker and pursue the privatisation agenda, then would it not be better to say "OK but let's do it with firm principles and a grand plan" then hopefully ending up like some of the best alternatives we have looked at rather than a mish mash and worse of all world's ending up like the USA which I thought was absolutely dreadful.

I. Was going to do an overview of the NHS but can hardly teach grans to suck eggs and there are a lot of you with far more information than I can bring to the table.

There are of course lot more health systems we haven't covered but this exercise me has taught me a number of things some of which have surprised me.
1. Other health systems work
2. You get what you pay for.
3. The NHS is not unsustainable, that is simply a code for not wanting to spend more than the current per capita GDP.
4. I think that those systems where the government is kept at arms length with the day to day running work better.

I can't find a good criticism of the Dutch/Swiss system . The only ones I can find are those published by the Republican press in the USA when the argument over the Obama health bill was raging.

Is this non-political?

www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/emma-bishton/pay-for-healthcare-we-already-do-3-question-mps-must-answer

I have to admit that for the % of germans who have private health Insurance they do seem to get more attention but not where cancer or operations or child care is concerned. The rich do better in the UK as well you are not going to be able to rule that out.

Some sceptics in talk shows advise against going private because of the lucrative pickings doctors can have with them. They get more useless examinations offered get more unnecessary operations.

I am not privately insured but when I had to go into hospital I ordered extra a private room. There are more nurses and better food and in the end it cost me about the same as a weekend in a hotel and I was in the same hospital just in a different ward. This option is open to everyone who can pay for it and actually paying for your health care becomes the natural thing to do. Healthcare is worth paying for. Of course the basics, the old and the young are special cases but Germany has a special fund to provide for the old and everyone pays 2 % of their salary into this and old people then get cash to help with bills. All children up to the age of 16 ( and later if studying)are free. Their parents do not pay extra for them, just as the bread winner does not pay for a stay at home spouse.
retired people continue to pay for health insurance but much less monthly.

Of course you get what you pay for I guess. I think there must be consideration relating to higher finances.

Thanks I will have a look in a minute,

SWISS 11.4% GDP

It would seem that the Netherlands system is bases on this.

Report from Civita

Both uphold principles of universality and equality by mandating individuals to purchase health insurance on the private market, providing financial assistance to those on low incomes, and regulating the insurance market in order to protect those with poor health.
The result appears to be high quality care for all, excellent patient satisfaction, strong uptake of new technology and drugs, short waiting lists and impressive health care outcomes!!!
Sounds too good to be true. If not I think this definitely is worth considering

I got the link from here.

nhap.org/join-us-nhs-fightback/facts-fingertips/

Lots more interesting links on it.