Assisted Dying

Indeed - the self-administered suicide is not a good option, especially if it gets bungled.

But I think we do need to be clear that ending one's life for the reasons that she did is a departure from previous practice - maybe a correct one, but the seriousness of this new step needs to be taken on board.

All this talk is giving me the creeps. 75 is no age everyone still has a lot to contribute. My Mum is 97 and thoroughly enjoys herself. She is almost housebound, has days when she has trouble breathing and feels like "shit" ( her words,). But she is involved with the family members a large amount, gossiping and driving me mad, is politically very informed - loathes the Tories, avid watcher of tennis and golf,reads the Guardian end to end

Didn't finish the post but you get my point

totally get your point about this not being your choice- but why does it give you the creeps? That choice will not be forced upon your dear mother, or you- so that's ok.

This is my first post, but I wanted to add my 10p's worth.

I'm only in my 50s, but I know now I don't want to live into old age. It's nothing to do with vanity, etc., but happiness and quality of life. I wouldn't act on my decision though whilst my lovely husband and Mum are still alive because I know they would not understand. They are the two people who mean the most to me, but other family and friends would not be a reason to stay around. Life for me is a daily struggle and it is exhausting pretending otherwise.

Will someone please explain what is wrong with saying you don't want to continue living?

I can't help but feel so much of the argument against assisted dying is connected with religion and a rose tinted view of our culture. Many old people do struggle daily and are a burden to their families - it's just not the done thing to say this out loud.

Years from now I believe the choice when to die will be part of living and elderly people struggling on low incomes and/or with poor health will be part of our history. It is inevitable that the answer to more of us living longer will be the option to choose when we die.

In my opinion, WilmaK, there is nothing wrong with saying you don't want to live. Different thing when they pass a law saying people can die when they like and others will not be prosecuted for helping them. Pressure by relatives, for whatever reason, could be put on some people who are not ready to die. No telling where it might all end.

They will have to work out a way whereby even the most disabled person will be able to end their life privately and with no outside help. Tricky. No sarcasm meant as I also think that having the option to end your life might come about for many reasons, including the ones you mention.

'Pressure from relatives' is always used as a reason for not giving people a choice about assisted dying.

I can only think that some folk have a very cynical view about relatives - and are unfairly assuming that the one who wishes to end his or her life is going to be so easily pressured.

As has been said before on this and similar threads, it does not happen in countries which allow assisted death and if the same safeguards were introduced in this country it wouldn't happen here either.

The worse part this surely is the fact that she had to travel all the way to Switzerland to access it and therefore probably unable to have close friends or family present.
Assisted dying, in certain cases, needs to be made legal and the sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

There used to be something called a Brompton cocktail which helped people glide off if I remember rightly. Recently I've been in and out of the NHS. This morin ing I saw an old lady lovingly guide her husband out of the clinic step by slow step. A week or two ago I saw and posted on here about it I think about a sweet old lady in a wheelchair whose husband was not prepared to spend any longer in the clinic when there was a delay caused by an emergency. Not sure I'd give the lady in a wheelchair much hope if she were becoming a nuisance when she couldn't have a say in staying for a routine appointment. Not everyone is a feisty Gransnetter.

But no doctor would be persuaded by that lady's (presumable) husband that because he couldn't be bothered to wait for her appointment she should be quiety dispatched to the hereafter!

quietly

And even if the husband convinced his wife that 'it would be for the best' if she chose assisted dying, proper safeguards would ensure that it was really what she wanted and offer an alternative (e.g. nursing home care) if it transpired that it was not.

exactly Ana, thanks.

on the other hand- what sort of quality of life has that poor lady got- with such a husband!?! It's all very nice saying this should happen or that- but what are her realistic choices here? Poor woman.

Shipman has a lot to answer for in this field. Doctors used to 'help' to some or to a large extent, when requested and in awful circumstances- but since Shipman, none would dare.

Blimey gran just because the poor old ladies husband is a s....t doesn't mean she should do herself in. The answer is to do him in, and get a decent carer.

When I said creeps I meant the Willie's!! If that makes more sense. We are all getting older and the thought of my demise is something that gives me the shivers. For me life is sweet and I wouldn't want to leave my children or DH too much to see what happens etc!! Saying that I do remember that when I was diagnosed with cancer and before the prognosis, I had written mysef off but had decided that there were definitely worse things like seeing your child die so would rather give my life than theirs.

of course not- never meant that at all. But we often ring hands and hearts about how care should be, but the reality is very different, isn't it, for so many, like this poor lady. And teh reality is she is probably stuck with his 'impatience' and moods, and cantankerous, perhaps worse- behaviour. It's all very nice saying he sould be 'done in' and she get a good carer- because with the system under such pressure, this is not likely to happen.
All I was saying.

Yes, I understood about the willies or the creeps- wasn't aware you meant about dying, rather than the choice for some to not continue with pain and the prospect of losing 'dignity'- as the poor woman sadly has.

Ana - Most relatives and friends are perfectly fine but a significant number aren't. If someone is at the end of life I would think they are at their least able to resist pressure.

That's why proper procedures and safeguards would need to be put in place, fluttERBY. Doctors would be well aware of the importance of ensuring that no coercion of any sort had taken place.

When my husband died, there were two doctors who had to give him permission to stop eating and drinking. They discussed it with him on his own and knew that it was his decision. He had already had an advance directive, signed by one of the GPs. He was told he could change his mind at any time, but he did not.
He was in a far worse state than this woman, but nobody knows really what sort of health problems she really had, and why she decided she had had enough.
Anyone going to Dignitas has to be in reasonable enough health to get there, and therefore has to die earlier than they might like. The problem at the moment is that we cannot do the same in this country, as Granjura says.

I agree with that DJ. We need a Dignitas (well, several) in this country. Better still as an option on the NHS. Much preferable to the Liverpool Pathway - or whatever they're calling it now.

My late mum suffered excruciating pain from the after effects of shingles which never went away completely. I have tinnitus and it can drive me to despair at times. This poor lady had a combination of both these things plus exhaustion. She had obviously come to the end of the road in coping with her health situation and I am pleased for her that she is now at peace.

IMO she made the right decision.

Ana - Procedures and safeguards in then NHS in its present state? They might work in Switzerland but I doubt they would here.

Article in today's paper which summs up my unease exactly. I shall copy some of it below

"Pharaoh was not I'll or on any medication. She said in a farewell blog " day to day I an enjoying my life" and her own words suggest that at the heart of her decision was something very troubling indeed: not least her insistence that she did not want people to remember her as an old lady hobbling up the road with as trolley.
In 2014 she wrote to the Times claiming that "many old people are a burden to society"
This word "burden" is now a staple of our society and coverage of our aging population most notably the rising "old age dependency ratio"
Thanks partly to the divisive policies of the current government, many now talk about the benefits that elderly are entitled to are "over generous" rather than the kind of provision for which everyone should be entitled as the get older.
Old age can be a joy and the experience of a life well lived gives many rewards, whether or not you are hobbling to the shops.
None of this is meant to make light of the trials or trauma that comes with a terminal illness, and there are potent arguments in favour of assisted dying.

What bothers me most of all is that the Pharaoh case highlights an insidious part of the debate, which gives a picture of people with plenty of life left to live, with the word " burden" sitting at the heart of their thoughts. Illness, whether terminal or not may force their hand. Then flights booked, a last meal, and a life ended.
I do not want to live, or die in a world like that, neither should anyone else.

Oh how I agree whitewave and have made those points myself. It seems that the points about the tinnitus and the exhaustion only came to light well after the event perhaps as some sort of justification. As I am now 78and DH 79 we are well past our sell by date but in spite of his Alzheimer's and transport difficulties we have a lot left to live AND to give. I should say before any one picks me up on it, she herself didn't need any justification it was her choice. It would be others who perhaps felt the need.