Assisted Dying

Flutterby, it would have worked for my husband, as the safeguards were in place. As it was he had to stop eating and drinking and died slowly over a few days, on the Liverpool care pathway. I hope when my time comes that I can have the dignity of choosing, like Granjura.

DJ I do agree with that sort of option, which undoubtedly should be available to everyone in the UK, but I do worry about the insidious message of "burden" we keep hearing.

When it comes to pressure to make this decision, I'm pretty sure that it will be an internal pressure driven by how the individual is feeling, rather than a more direct pressure from relatives in the vast majority of cases.

Shipman crossed my mind too.

But my position is that this should be an acceptable personal choice, - difficult but acceptable. Certainly checks and balances are needed, but we're a long way from any government being willing to even consult on this issue. At least the subject is out in the open.

In the meantime, only those who can afford to pay for a service like Dignitas will have the choice. Apparently on average every two weeks someone from the UK travels abroad to end their life - not many people.

My Dad died of cancer and although he wasn't ill for long, he basically starved to death. That was almost 20 years ago now, so I don't know what end of life options are available these days. His death is not why I feel this way though. I just want to be able to say when I have had enough, without going abroad, risking family or friends breaking the law, or acting in an underhand way. It won't happen in my life time.

Any info. on Dignitas welcomed

Their website has an English page

www.dignitas.ch

My children would, I know, be appalled if I said that I wanted to end my life in order never to be a burden to them. They regard family life as being give and take - there are times when you are the giver, and others when you are the taker.

When I was ill earlier this year, they would offer to do things and I would say that I did not want to trouble them, at which point they would explode and list all the times I had helped them, not just as children, but being the recipient of their troubles and source of what they see as wise counsel and support. They clearly did not regard it as a burden, but just one aspect of life's rich pattern.

I had a difficult relationship with my mother, but did not see it as a burden to organise her care - it is just part of life. I got on very well with my Dad and was happy to organise his care, even though it was a huge challenge at the time. At no time did I regard it as a burden - hard work yes, but not a burden. They were my parents for goodness' sake.

wonderful- so you have an approrpiate forum name- and that is fabulous. Sadly not everyone has a loveng family round the corner, many are estranged from their families for all sorts of reasons.

Our girls have already said they would like us to move back to uk if ever we did need regular help- and we would. But truly they have their own lives, children, families and busy jobs- and I would NOT want them to have to care for me physically day in and day out. I gave up my job to look after my parents abroad- and I didn't mind one bit- and yet I would NOT want my daughters to have to do the same. But I would not consider giving up on life and get paid help for my day to day care.

My only problem with moving back, if ever- is that the choice at the end would be taken away from me, outside Switzerland. It would be much much easier for us to go back to UK if the Law and Dignity in Dying was changed- giving us that choice- just in case. Long-term OAP home and care or long term palliative care are just not what I want - in case (and everything crossed it won't come to this, ever- I am a fighter).

LuckyGirl I'm glad for you.

As granjura says, not everyone is as lucky as you or feels the same way about the subject.

The problem for me is that it is not culturally acceptable to even discuss the subject. Burden is one aspect, but so is the basic right to choose. I don't think people are lining up in countries where choosing the right to die is legal, so it must be possible to find some middle ground.

A burden can be an acceptable one or an unacceptable one with varying degrees of both those things. Like most things in life it's not cut and dried. One can call looking after a loved one a burden without resenting the burden.

But those who find their own life a burden should have the choice to end it if and when they wish like the woman in the OP.

A friend of mine told her daughter she would go and live with her, and expect her to look after her in her old age- saying things like ' I won't mind if you have to wash me and wipe my bottom'and also told her she expected her to kill her if she got Alzheimers. I think that is NOT fair to ask- as daughter could have end up in prison, and she had a husband and family to look after, and her own life to live. Her daughter would have gone to the moon and back for her- but not there- just not fair.

I am just saying that the attitude that family members should be concerned about being a burden has another side to it. Some people do not look at it in that light, and, with the right help and support from society, should have no need to. I know that in many cases that support is not forthcoming, but we cannot endorse a situation where the definition of being a burden depends on the state of how we as a society support those in trouble.

I spent 25 years working with people with disabilities, mainly young people. Our job was to make their lives as happy and productive as we could. We certainly did not start from the assumption that they were a burden, but from the position that every life is valuable and worthwhile, and that our job was to foster that and bring out their talents and interests. I do not see it as being any different with elderly people.

Clearly it is an individual decision as to whether someone feels that their life is worthwhile; but it would be wrong to be forced to base that decision on a fear of being a burden to others. By all means a decision on the basis that they are in pain or extreme discomfort or that, despite the best efforts of our welfare and other services, they feel that life holds nothing for them - but not on the basis of thinking they might be a burden.

It reminds me of the movement in the 60s that said that there are no disabled people only disabling environments.

If our society regards those who cannot look after themselves as a burden, rather than as valuable human beings, then people will be influenced to feel that their life should be ended.

And I am not sure that my family is atypical in their attitudes. I have more faith in human nature.

I know very well that my daughter would look after me in my old age and wipe my bottom if necessary - but I do not want her to have to!

It's not a question of feeling that I'd be a burden, of course I would be but she would gladly bear it. I'd just rather have the right to sign out as and when I choose, rather than have to be dependent on others for the most basic of human needs. What's wrong with that?

nothing at all Ana- I feel just the same.

Asking a relative to take your life in case you get too ill or become senile- it just too selfish a gesture. The relatives risk being accused of murder and end up in jail. Which is why the law needs to be changed- so the choice can be made whilst protecting the family from direct involvement.

There is nothing wrong with you making that choice Ana - but I would like to hope that your DD might not automatically be asked to wipe your bum - that the care might be shared by a caring society.

Perhaps I'd rather that no one had to wipe my bum when I'm unable to do it myself. Certainly not a series of carers who might not be as caring as you seem to assume, Luckygirl!

yep, I don't want anyone to wipe my bum for me. I spent 6 monts in hospital after a car accident when I was 19/20- including 4 1/2 months in traction, and totally dependent- and hated every minute of it. I was young, staff was young- and we did have a good laugh. I had to ask to go on the potty half way through our wedding ceremony- we laughed.

That was enough for me ... never again- unless for a very short time after a major op. One of our relatives used to spread her faeces on the walls at the OAP home, and wash her false teeth in the WC- and take them out to use them to pick her food- NO NO and more NO.

Why is it wrong to say NO- and yes the burden aspect should not be taboo. With the NHS struggling for cash, and decision about treatment of the mums and dads with young children, and children themselves- what a waste of money- as well as diginity. There, I said it.

I did that for my husband until three weeks before he died.
The relief when I no longer needed to and hospice at home took over was unbelievable. I could just lie next to him, talk to him, listen to music with him and love him.

This is the sort of care we need and should aspire to. I am so glad that it was there for you and your DH jen.

DJ you suffered so, and helped him in a way few would be able to do

Here is Patric Stewart talking about dfund raising for the much needed campaign before the vote in the House of Commons in September. Perhaps some of you would want to contribute:

Hospice at home carers were very caring. They looked after me as well as him. They told us they were there for us both. He never wanted me to wipe his bum, but I had to before then. It's demeaning for both, whatever you say in the wedding vows.

here is the link for contributions to the campaign

youtu.be/7ls8VmfxXIY

Luckygirl I don't think your family are atypical, quite the opposite in fact.

No one is talking about forcing anyone down a particular road, just asking for more choice than is currently available (with the necessary safeguards).

thatbags summed it up perfectly for me (thank you).

I am one who for several years now have found life a burden. Most days are a struggle, even though I have a wonderful husband and loving family. I still believe should have the choice to end it if and when I wish like the woman in the OP. I find this subject even more relevant for me now than before because I was recently diagnosed with MS, so at some point I might find myself unable to make my wishes clear.

In which case, Wilma, you should have an advance directive in place which you have discussed with your family all together so they all know your wishes and there should be no argument.