Assisted Dying

thatbags, I agree.

Riverwalk- I thought my posts were quite clear- I agree it was her right, and that she felt she could not/didn't want to wait. But on the other hand, as a supporter of Assisted Dying, she must have been aware that we are now at a critical stage, with the bill being discussed in the House of Commons in September. As a very intelligent and thoughtful woman, I am sorry she didn't take this into consideration. But I respect her wishes, of course.

It wasn't meant to be patronising, river. I was just thinking about how my finding out more (being educated) about organ donation made me change my mind. Very straighforward, as I usually am.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread slightly by mentioning my diagnosis. Just wanted to say I am absolutely not thinking the worst, the exact opposite in fact. These days MS is often only given as a diagnosis after a second episode (depends on MRIs, etc.) and my second episode is much milder than my first. I may never have another for years. Funnily enough, I've just signed a Power of Attorney document for my FIL in case he needs it and have seen many in my career. In due course, I will make sure my feelings are recorded and known.

I think choosing to die when you are not terminally ill will be still be the exception than the norm for decades to come. Changing the law on assisted dying without risk of prosecution though will be an uphill battle whilst this kind of case (and that of the young woman) are sensationalised by the media because it makes reasonable discussion more difficult.

No system will be water tight, but several of the current arguments against assisted dying are being given too much weight when considering what is and is not reasonable.

Wilma - I have just posted that you did not hijack the thread but just added useful contributions - but I put it on the wrong thread! Time for bed I feel!

Agreed too- no highjack and a useful conribution to the discussion.

And it's great when we can discuss, debate, and not argue- and when we can all learn new things, consider new facts and different points of view. We can agree to disagree, and sometimes, some of us even change our we think or feel.

Take care and all the very best.

While reading about this case I saw the suggestion that by the age of 70 most people felt they were ready to die. Well I would have to detiorate an awful lot over the next year for me to be ready, I'm banking on at least another 10 years.

Most means 50.1%, Deeda. I assume you are in the 49.9%, so it might be accurate.

It is good that we are having this discussion. It certainly helps me to think about other people's thoughts about such a difficult subject.

I think my Mum is convinced she's on borrowed time since she reached the age her own father died. If she turned around tomorrow and told me she was going to Dignitas in Switzerland it would be a terrible shock, but I think we could talk about why she had reached her decision. However I think I would feel guilty for the rest of my life about her making that choice (Could I have done anything to keep her with me?), but I recognise that's my problem.

I wonder how the media found out about this woman? Does anyone know?

There often seems to be a feeling that being alive is always a better option than being dead, thus the possible feelings of guilt if one hasn't done 'all one can' to persuade someone they sill want to be alive. My feeling is that not wanting to be alive any more need not be a sign of depression or of anything someone else can do anything about.

My grandmother was quite desperate for it all to be over. We tried to jolly her along or change the subject. She was in her mid nineties at the time. It was so sad to hear her anxiously asking me at every visit (which was almost daily) 'when am I going Jane?'. She even had a plan involving throwing herself under a bus but fortunately she wasn't able to get out by herself by that time. She quite plainly would have welcomed assisted dying if it had been possible,she had her marbles, wasn't depressed and I don't think we could have had the heart to deny her it.

I brought the subject up with Mum aged 97 and mentioned the Pharoah case she had read about it in the paper etc.and her reply "poor soul she clearly wasn't normal" Mum has everything to live for and she is appalled listening to the suggestion that 70 + is quite OK to think ones time is up and quite honestly so am I.

It seems to me that she wanted to use the clinic.

She said that she was enjoying life.
But didnt want to end up may be requiring a lot of help.

A lot of people dont though.Her mother having dementia probably heavily influenced her decision.

I'm with you and your mum Whitewave.
Give her some and from me.

Just a thought that popped into my head - we are to have a referendum about the EU, when people who know very little about the whys and wherefores (myself included) will be able to vote. Perhaps we should have a referendum about assisted dying .

Whitewave, how wonderful about your mum. But you said it clearly 'she has everythingto live for' - and that is truly great. The reality though, is that is NOT the case for many in very old age (I know this womand was not very old- but she didnt' want to get there and find it is too late. Once you are too weak, too old, too infirm- and even more importantly, have dementia or Alzeheimers- that choice is no longer open to you).

For my mum, who truly lived 10 years of misery after an amazing life- blind, in a wheel-chair, totally dependent, and hugely disappointed with the behaviour of my brother) she didn't feel she had 'everything to live for'. my regular visits from abroad, and that of her grand-daughters in the UK and great-grandchildren, was lovely and much appreciated- but she couldn't read, couldn't play the piano, couldn't admire the countryside or the birds, her 2 best and wonderful friends had died, she was totally dependent- and hated it. She was in a great care home and very well looked after- but this is NOT what she wanted, and she truly wanted out.

Despite being a founder member of EXIT, she was stuck unable to ask for help, because it was against the rules of the OAP home, and because my dad, a Catholic, begged her not to. My guilt comes from NOT helping her- and not the other way round. Part of the reason we moved here was that I could take her home, where she could die in peace- but anyhow, dad would never have forgiven me. When she did die- having refused food and put her head to the wall (3 weeks before our move here!!) dad who was as fit as a fiddle at 96, died 3 months later. The Law has since been changed, and OAP homes are no longer allowed to refuse their residents to ask for help to die from EXIT. I was part of the campaign to get the Law changed.

granjura I think your Mother's case is entirely different. Gill Pharoah was by all accounts healthy other than a few aches and pains and not being able to do as much as she used to. I still cannot understand why she would end a life that could still be productive and pleasant. She had a partner and family and I just can't imagine how they could say that they supported her decision at this time , far less, accompany her while she committed suicide. I can understand why some people who suffer dreadful illnesses and disabilities might want to take this course and I wish I knew how they could make it clear as to when that time would come.

How can anyone say I might get this or I might become that so I'm going to kill myself now ? How are Doctors allowed to assist in this ?

I know many of you would say I am taking a rather simplistic view and maybe I am influenced by the fact that my own Mother , who had so many plans and dreams died very suddenly at the age 68.

agreed ginny- I feel uneasy about this case, and have said it several times. And yet- and this is really interesting I believe, in countries were assisted death is allowed, as in mine- people often choose to live much longer- even with some or a great degree of disability- safe int he knowledge that if it gets much worse (however, even here, this is NOT the case for dementia or Alzeheimers- the next big battle to be thought, but this is for another thread, perhaps)- they can ask and get help if it gets just too much.

In the case of Mrs Pharoha, she felt she had to go before she got too ill and too weak, to do so. Can you see that the current Law in the UK pushes people to make decisions far too early- just to be sure?

As said, though, even here- people who are diagnosed with either dementia or Alzeheimers- have to make the decision very quickly- often far too quckly. as once the disease has got a true hold, the Law will not allow them to get help- even in countries where assisted dying is legal.

btw, sorry to go on. Here, doctors are NOT involved in the deed, at all- apart from being informed. The help is given by trained volunteers- NOT doctors- and I feel this is much better. The interviews and the act on the day are recorded and filmed, and given to the police/coroner are given all the information when the death is confirmed.

Trained volunteers?
I can't find a reference now but I have read an account somewhere of these deaths being bungled and not going according to plan. Perhaps that explains it.

No, Granjura, I'm afraid your posts were not clear - to me anyway.

You said you were 'uneasy' about her case but then went on to complain that she'd done the deed without heed to forthcoming discussions in the HoC in September.

What were you uneasy about?

I am 66 and have a chronic illness. Also worked with dementia clients for many years. There are days when I struggle to survive and have just completed a Living Will.
Having said that, on the worst days I only have to think about my children and grandchildren and I feel I must battle on. Ultimately, for me, the devastation it would cause make it not a choice at all.

because, although I do believe it was her right, whatever we may think of it- it is an unusual case as she was NOT terminally ill or in immense and unbearable pain- and therefore might well be used a an example to fight the bill. As you know, English is not my language, and yet re-reading my previous reply, it seemed clear enough to me- apologies if it wasn't to you.

jane- I don't know of any 'bungled case' by EXIT- at all. The proces is quite fail safe - the prescription is given by the chemist, and the 'potion' fatal and seconds. There is no need at all for a doctor to be present.

We had one difficult case 2 years ago- the patient had motor-neurone and by the time the formal interview was done, and the volunteer (who happened to be a retired doctor) turned up on the day arranged- the poor poor woman was unable to pick up the glass and drink unaided. The volunteer rigged up a sort of pull mechanism, with a scarf- but the poor woman still could not managed that and cried that she just had to be helped- and was totally desperate. The volunteer helped her pull the scarf- but someone complained. It all went to court and EXIT won, and case dismissed, as the wishes of the person were absolutely crystal clear- and that her disease had caught up with her to such an extent that she could not do it herself- and that, faced with her desperation and pleas, the volunteer just had to help her- which I feel was totally the right and humane thing to do. To say to that woman- tough, you are now too sick to take the potion, you'll just have to live the misery and pain to the end... would have been totally wrong imho.

Would anyone disagree?

I have also made my wishes clear and informed all my family that I have made choices now while I am fit and healthy. I certainly do not want to live with chronic illness or having to depend on others. It is a very personal choice and we can only respect what each of us chooses. I personally do not agree with a suicide but I do agree with the choice to have no treatment in certain circumstances. Most of those who travel to Dignitas would pass if treatments were withdrawn, with the exception of pain relief and any other drug for easing our journey from this world to the next.

I still find it hard to believe that someone could use Dignitas just because they don't want to get old and / or MIGHT suffer from dementia or other age related illnesses. There must be more to this case that we are being told.