Assisted Dying

I do think that we are talking about two entirely different things here.
The first is someone who is in unbearable pain or as my husband so nicely puts it can no longer wipe their own ass or nose then something like the offer of death as an alternative should be available.

The second is the person who seems to be anticipating something that may never happen, except the knowledge that she is getting older which is part of the Human condition and if you are lucky inevitable. This is not In my opinion a reason to be offered euthanasia.

I don't suppose for one moment that she didn't give this enoumous thought.Britions are travelling to Dignitas in record numbers which proves there is a need for safeguarded assisted dying. I can't imagin the guts this takes even though I personally don't agree with it.

One case is difficult to understand for some people. Does that make it wrong? Or just weird in those people's eyes?

I don't believe other people's understanding is required for Mrs Pharoah's case. She understood what she was doing and wanted to do it. That is sufficient.

The Dignitas website has a Q and A section, and you can also dowload the booklet in PDF- which I have just done.

Here is the section about PREREQUISITES - and as you rightly say, this current case does not fit in with this at all. So either the boundaries were pusshed sginificantly (and the reason why I feel un-easy, and fear the case will be used against Dignity in Dying campaign and discussion in the House of Commons- or, as said above ginny- there is a lot more to this case than we publicly know. Here is what Diginitas says:

- 6 -
Prerequisites
In order to access the service of an ac-
companied suicide, someone has to:
•
be a member of DIGNITAS
,
and
•
be of sound judgement,
and
•
possess a minimum level of physical
mobility (sufficient to self-administer
the drug).
Because the co-operation of a Swiss
medical doctor (physician) is absolutely
vital in obtaining the required drug, fur-
ther prerequisites mean that the person
must have:
•
a disease which will lead to death
(terminal illness),
and/or
•
an unendurable incapacitating disabil-
ity,

and/or
•
unbearable and uncontrollable pain.

Any member of DIGNITAS
– no matter whether resident within Switzerland or
‘abroad’ – can ask for an accompanied
suicide to take place at the DIGNITAS premises. In addition to meeting the pre-requisites set out above, the member
must submit a formal request for the
preparation of an accompanied suicide to
DIGNITA
. This request must comprise:
•
A personal, signed letter to DIGNITAS
preferably typed, in which the
member asks for an accompanied su-
icide with the help of DIGNITAS
. The letter must state the reason(s) for
making the request and must de-
scribe the member’s present physical
condition and how it affects them.
•
A biographical sketch / CV, also de-
scribing the member’s situation with
respect to their next of kin. DIGNITAS
and the doctors assessing a request
use this information to get a clear
picture of the member’s personal
background and family circumstanc-
es.
•
One or more up-to-date medical re-
ports together with two or three older
ones. These reports must provide
substantial information on the case
history, diagnosis, and - if possible -
actual and suggested treatment /
measures as well as prognosis. The
most recent report must not be more
than three to four months old, and all
reports must be clearly legible. Pic-
tures, such as x-ray films etc., and
laboratory analyses should not be in-
cluded.
Obviously, it is important to ask doctors
and clinics to provide copies of medical
reports at an early stage. These reports
must be in English, French or German;
for other languages official translations
must be obtained and provided.
Once DIGNITAS
receives a member’s
complete request, it can be processed
and passed on for assessment to the
Swiss medical doctors cooperating with
DIGNITAS
. Assuming that the doctors
agree to help in the specific case (by
giving the so-called “provisional green
light”), DIGNITAS will inform the mem-
ber after which all further steps may be
discussed in detail. The “provisional
green light” is the preliminary consent
of a Swiss medical doctor, which bases
on the request and the medical file.
However, definite decision remains re-
served until personal consultation be-
tween the Swiss medical doctor(s) and
the member.

Apologies for format- as we can't edit on this site, there is little I can do. Hope it might be of interest to some all the same.

Totally agree Bags- and yet- her case does not seem to fit at all with the pre-requisites for Dignitas- as per their own regs.

granjura Why is it necessary for the person to administer their own fatal dose?
If there are so many safeguards in place to ensure that the process is not abused, what's the difference between a trained volunteer handing over a cup of poison and a nurse or doctor injecting a lethal drug?

But in Pharoahs case what was wanted was suicide and not a release from my first example.

I would argue that the balance of her mind was disturbed, as she appeared to be anticipating something that !may never happen.

Are lethal injections by someone else allowed?

One could pour a cup of poison on the floor. The person who igests it is totally in control of their final moments before taking it. No-one else is required.

The assistance, surely, is simply supplying the draft, not administering it.

ingests

I agree jane- but the point is, the person has to be able to change their mind up to the very last second.

So no, bags, no lethal injections. So were are so lucky here to have the choice in most cases, but if at the last minute, the illness progresses and the person cannot self administer- even if just by pulling on a scarf or other contraption- then it is normally too late.

And the next big step is the situation re Dementia or Alzheimers. As said above, the person has to decide very quickly and in the early stages- to die before it gets worse- as anyone asking for asistance has to be compus mentis on the day. Many argue that this is terrible unfair- as the person has to 'leave' when they could still have many weeks or months or some quality of life- and that to force a person to make the decision 'too' early is cruel. EXIT argues, and I agree- that one should be able to make a clear advance directive, with 5 criteria personally chosen- saying that, when those 5 criteria are clearly reached, the fatal potion should be given then.
I've been trying to make a list of my criteria, that is not easy. Perhaps something like

when I do not recognize any of my children or grand-children and think they are strangers

when I no longer show any pleasure at the sound of beautiful music, or bird song

when I begin to do really awful things with my excrements (sorry- but a very personal case makes me feel that way) like smearing them on my walls, my face and my bed

when I cannot speak or make myself understood

when I get distressed and violent due to the frustration of the above

That will do, I think.

I believe that Gill Pharaoh's decision plays into the hands of an increasing number who view older people as an inconvenience. Ageism is rife. Health and mobility don't improve with age but age shouldn't be seen as a disease, even if it is terminal. I'd have hated for any of my elderly relatives to feel themselves a burden. Soon voluntary euthanasia, next compulsory?

It makes very uneasy Jackie Perhaps that is one reason to keep the house of lords as they are bound to be consulted giving their average age and hopefully they will come to a sensible decision, given that they are clearly enjoying life on their £300 day allowance and other unmentionable perks!!!!

jackikiel- you've been watching Logan's Run too many times perhaps. The 2 are not linked- at all, choice and compulsory.

Perhaps the staff at Dignitas are not following their own rules. Perhaps it is just one member of staff.

I hear what Jackie is saying and share this view - if it becomes the norm for elderly people to be regarded as an inconvenience or burden, then many people are going to feel sidelined and irrelevant in their later years. It is a reflection of poor attitudes towards elderly people.

Thank you granjura for posting those criteria from Dignitas - it is hard to understand how this lady qualified for the end she desired.

I also understand your criteria for wishing to end life in the event of a dementia illness. I can see where you are coming from. The difficulty is of course that we cannot perceive the world through the brain of someone with dementia - some seem contentedly dotty, others distressed and agitated. Someone who seems content but who does not recognise their family for instance may not be suffering in any way - if we try and turn the clock back and think about what their thoughts might have been when they were well, then we know that they would not have wanted this - but they are a different person now and may be perfectly happy.

hence the 5 criteria I quoted- in those circumstances, it would be quite clear that I would not be 'happily doolalli'. My mil was so was for many years, but the last 2 were ghastly. She was either very distressed and violent, or so drugged up she was like a zombie. I know SHE would have hated hated hated it- and what on earth was the point of those last 2 years- apart from totally losing diginity and every little bit of quality of life and no enjoyment of anything? Why oh why? Not for me, NEVER- and it that means chosing to go early, then so be it.

In an advance directive you have to say when you want treatment and when you do not.
You have to say that you have the capacity to make the decisions when you sign, and a doctor has to sign to say you have.
You can refuse all medical intervention aimed at prolonging or artificially sustaining life and if you suffer serious impairment of the mind or brain with no prospect of recovery together with a physical need for life sustaining treatment/interventions.
You can refuse treatment in the event of an inability to feed yourself.
You have to say you refuse treatment even in the event that the action will shorten your life.

So that's why you have to decide what you want while you are still capable of deciding. Any later and the advance decision will not count.

Interesting what you say about care homes, and Exit, Granjura. According to DyingMatters, a quarter of all deaths occur in care homes.

On the surface, the idea of being able to bow out with dignity when one has had enough of life seems appealing, but I am very much opposed to it because it would inevitably lead to abuse of the vulnerable. There is so much in the news about "bedblockers" and the "burden of the elderly", that I can imagine coming to feel that it was my duty to depart, whether I wanted to or not.

And if someone who is fit and well is allowed to seek euthanasia just to avoid getting old, where do we draw the line? Many people of all ages may feel their lives are not worth living either. Who is to say which of them are right? For example, would someone who has been unable to get over a major bereavement or a painful divorce, be justified in requesting euthanasia?

granjura thanks for the list of requisites. It makes me even more sure that there must be more to Gill Pharoah's story. I can't understand why anything should be hidden given that she and her partner were happy to let the world know what she was doing. It also begs still begs the question if the criteria were not met as to how Dignitas allowed it to happen at this point.

I think your list is a good one and I do believe that you should be able to choose in this way but of course once you were at that stage, would you be able to administer the drug knowingly yourself ? It's a question that could go round in circles.

My mother in law is like that at the moment, Granjura. It does not matter how many drugs they give her, she is getting increasingly violent and agitated. So much so that they are thinking of moving her into a closed ward in a hospital. I know she would gladly have died last year. She nearly did, in a coma for two weeks. However, she had not signed any forms, so they had to keep her alive.
I know I do not want to end up like that.

How dreadful for her, and yes, for her children too. I would never want my children to see me like that, and cry at what I had become, as we did for my mil- and my mum in a different way (she never suffered from dementia).

All OAP homes here a private and have a Charter of how they want to run the place. When you go there, you have to sign that you accept those conditions. It is the only local one, and she was placed there after she broke her femur. It's only later, when she got desperate to die- that the reality sunk in. Despite being a member of EXIT for 50 years- she could not ask for support there. The Law has now been changed- and those private OAP homes are no longer allowed to stipulate that- as it is considered as an attack on your basic human rights. Too late for mum.

(btw everyone who can pay, pays- or the local council pays if you can't afford it- or when savings run out (and of course houses and possessions have to be sold to pay).

Even a signed directive doesn't always work. My friends Dad had sign one requesting no treatment in certain circumstances. He had a severe stroke and could not move or speak but he was treated when he got pneumonia and survived for a few more months.

Oh dear. I just had to witness my elderly neighbours' living wills stating clearly that they did not want to be resuscitated.