A snapshot look at NHS services in your area

"When I HAD cause to question"

With reference to women qualifying as doctors to "improve their chances "in the soi-disant marriage market and then never practising. You included ophthalmologists too for some reason which I fail to follow.
This is increasingly happening in some UK medical schools, for the same reasons, with similar effects on the number of doctors trained - as well as other factors mentioned like a much reduced numbers of hours, and many working part-time

I am careful to quote your exact words when I gave cause to question your sweeping assertions, GJ to ensure that nothing is "lost in translation" as it were.
If you do did not mean some of what has been questioned, by others as well as myself, it should perhaps not have been expressed in such unambiguous terms.

And how about the young women enlisting in droves so as to get ahead in the marriage stakes? In the Uk, please, not in Pakistan - which is not the NHS.

Oh dear, some of you do choose to distort intentions of what is being said. I've never said it was wrong for a doctor, female, male, married, parent or not, to work part-time (alhtough it can impinge on continuity of care- as many complain in practices where the number of doctors has doubled in last decade or so, with most working part-time, for whatever reason/s, as patients find it very difficult to see the same doctor for continuation of treatment- but this is a separate issue). All I am saying, is that the Government did calculate the number of GPs needing to be trained to cover the needs of the population and replace the baby-boomers- but now find that there is a huge short-fall, partly due to larger increase of population than expected, the number leaving to go abroad, the number deciding not to go into General Practice at the end of studies, and the number of part-timers- this combined to the new contract which means most out of hours services are now served by separate doctors and not the GPs.

You truly do not need to be Einstein to work out that there is a huge short-fall- which is going to get worse and worse. As a woman, mother and grand-mother, I totally agree that women (and men btw) have the right to choose to work part-time- but it doesn't half (well, it may halve) the number of doctors required- and that was never taken into consideration when working out the numbers required. The same thing is happening in other European countries too btw, including Switzerland. A young doctor was being interviewed recently on Swiss TV, a Union representative- and his message was 'no way are we going to work ourselves to the bone like the old guys- we want a work-life balance and time for leisure and our families'- and I don't blame them, at all (I've experienced the 'old ways' and it was very hard). But- it has a huge knock.on effect on numbers, and therefore on quality of service.

I would rather have a female Gp available in my practice who works only half the week than none at all. If there are severalk part-time female GPs, you can be sure of getting one of you want one.

Does the taxpayer really pay for all of medical traing? I thought the fees at medical school were high and paid by the student? If some of it is subsidised, so are the courses of other students, and also the education of those who leave school with no qualifications whatsoever and never work.

I meant to add that our GP who is the senior partner and works 2 days a week, is a man in his 50's.

Sorry, jane - missed that link.

The pregnant woman doctor commenting on that article, that "the medical profession is not conducive to family life (or indeed any life) eg last week I worked over 90 hours (rota'd hours - not extra, and no 'on call' room" may indeed be lucky not to be working 140 hours a week (just as someone with a broken leg may be lucky not to have broken both), but she can't possibly do that while being around for a family. If she is married to another doctor who does the same, plus extra hours and oncall, neither of them will be on hand for their children. Childcare is not the total answer - the children need time with their own parents.

It does not surprise me at all that women prefer part-time work. It is noticeable that the author of that article is a man at the top of his profession, who doubtless has a wife to organise his home and his children.

I really don't believe that women in this country (or even in Pakistan) go into the long training and dedication that medicine requires just so that they can marry well. Some may discover at the end of the training that they have attracted the attention of a prospective husband who values their intelligence and stickability more than the vacuous smiles of a glamour-puss, but it is a too expensive and exhausting path to a marriage bureau.

Skimming through Google to try to find some foundation for accusations of
Women GPs/part time work/Pakistani women who never practise, I came on this comment, which I think may be more relevant.

as a doctor of 26 years with 23 of these working in the NHS (hospitals for 7 years; General Practice for the past 16) I wholeheartedly agree with many of the comments here. Micro-management, finger pointing to individual errors when there are larger system errors at play, trying to resolve problems through legislation rather than sharing hard facts with the public...it has all made General Practice, and Medicine, a less appealing career than it used to be. Having done more than 500 appraisals it is sad to see the demoralising effects the changes have had on hard working, diligent colleagues. It is time to attempt to reverse the tide of naming, blaming and shaming with support, understanding and funding. Either that or the NHS will wither away and many will suffer as a consequence of the actions of the few

Ahem Elegran that was the same article I posted a link to. As I said before, Prof J Meirion Thomas' views are not supported by the majority of the medical profession.

I have found an article in the DM, (by a hospital surgeon) bemoaning the fact that many women doctors are choosing to work part-time.

At one point he says "In a Commons debate in June, Anne McIntosh, a Tory MP, said that women doctors who had received expensive medical training but went part-time after starting a family were a huge burden on the NHS"
A comment after the article makes a good point "Simple solution - men can take more responsibility for childcare then and women can go full time. Job done." It is a fact of life that women have babies, and babies need care.

Another comment (by a woman doctor) "This is disappointing to read. I am 19 weeks pregnant working a heavy ITU rota of mostly 13 hour shifts. I trained hard at medical school to become a doctor because I genuinely wanted to make a difference and I enjoy my job. However the medical profession is not condusive to family life (or indeed any life) eg last week I worked over 90 hours (rota'd hours - not extra, and no 'on call' room), I rarely do a normal '40 or 48 hour week'. I would like to come back to work fulltime however doctors 'full time' does not equate to a 'standard' working week. Furthermore creches, including hospital creches do not provide 24/7 cover to cover the long days, nights and weekends we are expected to work. Also married doctors with young children can often get placed miles apart, which isn't helpful. Instead of blaming women, it would be more progressive for Prof Thomas and the NHS to support doctors return to work...and make the medical profession more family friendly for both men and women."

Sorry about the gobbledegook, my iPad has serious gremlins , it seems. That should read
" your final point would appear to link this to the UK"

What is the relevance to this thread which is about the NHS?
Your final point would appear to leave no this to the UK, I have seen no evidence for a very tenuous if not imaginary connection.
This is increasingly happening in some UK medical schools, for the same reasons, with similar effects on the number of doctors trained - as well as other factors mentioned like a much reduced numbers of hours, and many working part-time

Sez who?
And if there are GPS working part time, that is their choice. In our practice we have 8 doctors, the senior partner , who also happens to be our doctor works only 2 days a week. That is in preference to retiring so the NHS actually GAINs.

I'd like to know which UK medical schools, and some data and statistics on the situation in Britain. After all, what happens in Pakistan won't have all that much effect on the NHS. They are not totally dependent on a supply of women doctors from Pakistan.

Been at a Council meeting, not avoiding a reply. This is from the BBC on August 28th- there are very many articles on this situation in Pakistan, and it is very 'Googlable' (women who qualify as doctors who will not practise as doctors in Pakistan... or words to that effect). Only copying and pasting part of the article:

Hot ticket

The vice-chancellor of the prestigious Shaheed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto medical university in Islamabad, Dr Javed Akram, says that girls are more focused on excelling academically than boys.

At the same time, he accepts that some female students are more keen on catching a husband than on pursuing a career.

"It's much easier for girls to get married once they are doctors and many girls don't really intend to work as professional doctors," he says.

"I know of hundreds of hundreds of female students who have qualified as a doctor or a dentist but they have never touched a patient."
Image caption Dr Javed Akram, who rejects the idea of quotas, says his university's female students "study harder so obviously they are better students"

Privately, many doctors - both male and female - tell me that a medical degree is an extremely hot ticket in the marriage market.

To confirm this claim, I visit the Aisha Marriage Bureau run by Kamran Ahmed and his wife. Business is so good they are opening their second branch in Islamabad.

Mr Ahmed says his best clients are mothers seeking doctor wives for their sons. "In social gatherings, it's very prestigious to introduce your daughter-in-law or wife as a doctor."

And he says if a young female doctor is even a little good-looking, then finding a match for her is a breeze. "By the way, if you know of any single doctor girls, please let me know. I have boys who are looking," he adds in a cheeky aside.
Image caption Kamran Ahmed says having a doctor for a daughter-in-law is considered prestigious

But the "doctor wife" is more than a trophy: her absence from hospitals has serious implications on the healthcare system of a poor country like Pakistan.

The government spends millions of rupees on subsidies per student - yet there is a serious shortage of doctors, especially in rural areas where women prefer to be examined by female doctors.
'More women-friendly'

Dr Shaista Faisal is an official with the PMDC whose research into the subject led the council to try and introduce a limit on the number of women being admitted to medical colleges.

When news of the "quota" on male-female admissions broke in the local media it quickly drew flak and controversy. But the PMDC insists it is the only solution.

"It's not a quota. We want 50% of admissions to be for males and 50% for females," Dr Faisal says, a little defensively.

"It's not discrimination. I don't think we're allowing boys who don't study to get into medical schools. This shortage of doctors is the biggest challenge to Pakistan's health system."
Image caption Many female medical students face a dilemma: their careers or their families
Image caption Human rights lawyer Shahzad Akbar argues that quotas in medical colleges are unconstitutional


This is increasingly happening in some UK medical schools, for the same reasons, with similar effects on the number of doctors trained - as well as other factors mentioned like a much reduced numbers of hours, and many working part-time.

Yep , saving my breath to cool my porridge as we say

I would still like evidence of that assertion - it seems unbelievable to me and the answer can't be found by googling (not by me, anyway).

But perhaps it's time to move on if no answer is forthcoming...

Quote: "And a significant women who study medicine or ophthalmology have no intention of ever working in the field ever- but do so to secure a better marriage, in societies were (where?) arranged marriages are still the norm"

This is what you said GJ and I assume it is what you meant, if that isn't sexist and racist I don't know what is. You insult intelligent women who spend years studying for their qualification by reducing their motivation to that of posh gels at a Swiss finishing school.

In which case, GJ, my daughters must be working in a very different set up to the one you describe.Regularly do 12 hour shifts, no lunch hours, on call at night, home visits all part of their lifestyle.How many GP practices have 10 doctors?

Out of interest, granjura, and in the absence of any references, how did you come by the information about women training to be doctors and then never actually working?

Was it hearsay? I can't find anything to support your claim.

Junior doctors (not talk about GPs) used to work up to 140 hrs in the 70s- the maximum is 50 now- so do the sums (I think it may be up to 70 including on call- will have to check). GPs used to do their own on-call and visits- often 1 night in 3 or 4, + 1 week-end in 3 or 4- on TOP of 'normal' hours- they very rarely do now.

Never ever said that women should not be allowed to work part-time, EVER- I said that if the GVT calculated the number of GPs required to cover the population (and this without including the population increasing faster than expected) based on them working full-time- the short fall is massive.

A practice having 5 GPs 20 years ago will often have double that now, with several part-timers, and on top of that, on call at night and week-ends will be done by outside doctors. That is NOT sexist, nor anti-equality- but looking at the reality on the ground. With all the baby boomers retiring now, we are facing a massive short-fall. I do keep up, very closely actually.

The predudices are showing GrannyJ.

I cannot believe that any woman would work her socks off for five or six years to obtain a medical degree and then not bother to practise.

GJ I find your attitude towards female doctors deeply insulting.All junior doctors, whether male or female, study and work incredibly hard.Female doctors have every right to have children and return to work part time, just as female teachers do...or any profession for that matter.
I would question your point that, these days, GPs work less hours...practices are incredibly busy, usually because they are understaffed.You are still living in the age of Dr Findlay and Doc Martin...things have changed, keep up.

Surely having women GPS who work part time is a whole lot better than NO women doctors or fewer doctors altogether because child care is an issue?

I googled 'women not practising medicine' and the only result that came up which applied to the UK was this article
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2532461/Why-having-women-doctors-hurting-NHS-A-provovcative-powerful-argument-leading-surgeon.html
The more observant GNers will note that it is in the Daily Fail and it is written by Professor J Meirion Thomas, who has been excoriated for his views in Pulse, Private Eye and by Dr Rant.