Illness, mental and physical

thatbags, I accept you're desire to break through a taboo barrier in order to change stupid attitudes in the long run. I don't feel this particular incident meets that need.

I don't agree that if KJ had told KL to fuck of that would have been better. KL sadly spoke as do many people (often men) of his generation. He'd forgotten that Kevin J had spoken openly about his depression at a time when a number of MP's did so, for the same reason you set out.

If KL had made similarly inflammatory comments about race/faith/gender I suspect he'd have been roundly condemned and rightly so.

I've just watched the two of them interviewed on channel 4 news. Ken came out of it, imo, very badly.

I agree bags - he should have told him to fuck off. He admitted in an interview that he was retaliating with an insult. Jeremy Corbyn instructed him to apologise and it's been reported that, since making a 'that's all he's getting' remark about not apologising properly, he has now apologised unreservedly. I didn't think KL would stoop to such insults, but he's gone right down in my estimation.

But that has to be balanced by the fact that people cannot be allowed to effectively bully a person who might be ill.

He also diagnosed him. Perhaps utterly wrongly.

My worry is that if people keep being offended by remarks such as KL's and demanding apologies, then people will keep on stigmatising mental health problems because there's obviously something to get upset about, whereas if someone says you should take yourself to a doc about that cough or rash or constant headaches or whatever, people just shrug and say, yes, maybe you're right.

If KJ had just told KL to fuck off I think it would have been better.

I know it's not as simple as I'm putting it here. I'm just trying to break through a taboo barrier because I think that will help change stupid attitudes in the long run.

I didn't 'twig' that this was all about the Ken Livingstone remark. In that context it was meant as an insult and the reason why people don't talk about mental health problems. Admit you have/had some, even if it was temporary and totally resolved, and it will always be flung back. It's like the 'time of the month' taunt that some obnoxious men use to belittle a woman - it's pathetic and irritating and cheap. I'm very glad that Ken Livingstone has had to apologise - I doubt he meant it but he was made to do it and that must have hurt!

Bags, I agree that mental health issues shouldn't be stigmatised.

Ken ought to know better on several levels. He said he didn't know that Kevan Jones had experienced mental health problems when he made his offensive remarks. Ken was pushed on radio 4 at lunch time to apologise. He said he would, but only if KJ apologised first for suggesting Ken wasn't the right appointment (what did KL know about defence etc). Ken responded by saying he was brought up in a rough area where if someone was rude to you, you were rude back. Subsequently, JCorbyn told Ken to apologise, so he tweeted an unreserved apology.

I absolutely despair at all of this. Ken behaved appallingly, to suggest someone needs to see a psychiatrist and must be depressed because they don't support your appointment to a job is outrageous. Vampirequeen is right, it's the kind of abusive, controlling behaviour often used by abusive and controlling individuals.

I could rant for a while about my concerns (as a Labour party member) about all of this, but I'm sure relief all round when I say - over and out.

How lovely of you Bella. That amost made me tearful. Thank you. Some lovely people on here.

What I was also thinking is this: KL apparently said KJ was 'disturbed'. My immediate reaction to that was: Well, of course he is if he's ill! Illnesses can be very disturbing. I'd be 'disturbed' if I got any kind of serious illness

A mind being disturbed because a person cannot think straight, is quite quite different to being disturbed about the situation you are in. I think KL unfortunately meant the former, rather than the latter.

What Anya says.

And if these were the words the KL actually to the Mirror
Mr Livingstone told the Mirror: “I think he might need some psychiatric help. He's obviously very depressed and disturbed.

“He should pop off and see his GP before he makes these offensive comments.”

that is not at all the same as having a quiet chat with the man in private. And not using those words!

Katyk, well done for being such an amazing coper. You must be doing really well to be able to do that. If the time ever came when you really needed help I'm sure you would know to seek it. You mentioned you haven't had a cold for decades ( on another thread) and maybe you could consider that as a reward for being so strong. Stay strong

In my own case - I have suffered from severe anxiety for many years due to life events - what has stopped me seeking help has always been the fact that I thought I should be able to cope on my own/be like everyone else. I have never wanted my DD to have a mother who is 'on medication because she can't cope'. On the other hand, few people in my life have had the childhood experiences that I have had (and I do realise some people go through worse). Then when more bad things happened in recent years I almost reached the end of my tether but somehow I am still here and still not on medication, although maybe I would have had an easier ride if I had been and I don't blame people who are.

In that context, ie said in public, it was offensive. Ken is too outspoken.
Whether mental illness and physical illness are separate - Some types are and some aren't, imo. eg bipolar disorder seems to be caused by chemical imbalance, which can be corrected with medication. Similarly some forms of depression. Like type 1 diabetes, sufferer will probably need to be on lifelong medication.
But there are some forms of schizophrenia which are difficult to treat and can result in very frightening and dangerous behaviour. Which is probably where the stigma comes from.
Or many of the drugs have unpleasant side effects, so people stop taking them.
There can't be many families where there isn't someone with some form of mental illness. It's in my family, and husband's.
The trouble it's a very broad complicated subject, and not much known about it in the general public.

I agree, pogs and jane with what you say if KL was deliberately rude. I think my worry is that many people seem to automatically assume stupid things about mental health and I agree with mollie, bnonna* and annsixty that we should tackle this. I think it's good that well known people who have had mental illness are speaking out and hopefully in time this will make a difference to stupid attitudes.

What I was also thinking is this: KL apparently said KJ was 'disturbed'. My immediate reaction to that was: Well, of course he is if he's ill! Illnesses can be very disturbing. I'd be 'disturbed' if I got any kind of serious illness.

Sorry POGS I seem to have made the same point as you - I didn't see your post before posting mine.

BagsI think it is the context in which Ken Livingstone's comment were made.
If the Mirror account can be believed, Kevan Jones questioned whether Ken should be leading a review of Labour's defence policies. We don't know his exact words, or in what tone of voice he said them.

Ken retorted that he should 'see his GP' and then said to the Mirror that he(Kevan) should seek psychiatric help.

If that is what happened, then I don't think it's very professional to discuss a colleague's health, physical or mental, with a national newspaper.

It also sounds (although this is my interpretation, I admit) that Ken was using the need for psychiatric treatment as some type of slur.

Of course if he had suggested to Kevan Jones in private that he might benefit from seeing his psychiatrist, in a supportive way, that would not be offensive at all.

I used the political issue as an example not to score political points or make the thread political. I would have started a thread if I wanted to do that.

I used the scenario as a good example and the fact it was discussing politicians was simply to try and make a point how 'context' is the key.

Politicians will be as offensive as they feel necessary to score over an opponent. That is the name of the game.

I don't think it's offensive if the suggestion is made out of genuine concern but it is if used as an insult.

I don't want to bring politics into this but a classic situation is ongoing as we post.

Ken Livingstone has just been given a role on the Labour Defence Committee ? and Kevan Jones (shadow defence minister) made a comment about his credentials. Livingstone in return said he 'might need some psychiatric help'.

OK maybe tit for tat but all hell has broke loose as Kevan Jones was one of the 'cross bench' speakers debating mental health illness in Parliament and like others spoke of his personal problems with mental health issues. Livingstone refuses to apologise .

So using that scenario as an example whilst I do believe mental health illness at long last has an understanding by most of the public it is a fine line we all tread when mental health comments arise, such as Ken Livingstones, mental health is still viewed as some sort of insult and used in this context it is.

To abide by the OP , no I do not think it offensive to tell somebody to go to a doctor/psychiatrist but it is the 'context' of how it is said/implied I suppose.

I think it could be deemed offensive if Livingston was using it as a weapon to deride his opponent. I somehow doubt it was offered in the spirit of goodwill and genuine concern.

It is the same when Employers ask now on job applications if the applicant has had mental health issues but they don't ask if he/she has had pneumonia or the like. It leads to people hiding the truth and then falling to pieces when they have an episode because their job is then at risk.

Thank God he's your Ex, vq.
That bags, you can't "tell" someone to go to a psychiatrist unless they've got lots of money. They would have to see their GP, tho you probably mean people saying it in a derogatory way as in " you need to see a psychiatrist".
As you say, though, there has always been a stigma attached to it. Mental health services come under different trusts from local hospital trusts so the NHS has already created this division. all the time the general mentally healthy population goes on referring to nutters and mad people that stigma against them will persist. I don't know how we educate people to think differently. DH suffered a bad depression when he was at work but I didn't tell anyone. I have since worked in mental health and have talked with many different people with all kinds of conditions ranging from hypo mania, or bipolar, to OCD, schizophrenia and of course depressive conditions, which have many varieties. Most of us probably have some kind of "mental" I.e. " of the mind" problem. I know I get over anxious among other things, but have never needed medical help.
It DOES carry a stigma probably because of our fear and ignorance of mental health wellbeing. Maybe more people in the public eye talking about their condition, e.g. Stephen Fry, will go some way towards destigmatising it and in a way lessen our fear?

The 'why' is what Vampirequeen said, suggesting someone has mental health issue can be given and received as an insult and we know why, we all have stories to tell. But I'm totally with you about mental health being the same as physical health. And I agree that we need to change society's understanding and get rid of the fears and stigma attached to mental illness. I fear it will be a long, hard road though...

Blast!!

your, not you're

Did you read the article, lucky?