Immunisations

I don't think there's any evidence on here about resistance to questioning. What is on here is evidence of people looking at problems that may be associated with vaccination and deciding that the positive results far and away outweigh any possible negative results. And lets remember that a whole generation of children were endangered by one set of very spurious results by a discredited scientist on the MMR vaccine.

One of the reasons why modern parents may decide against immunisation is that it is a victim of its own success. Measles is a clear case in point. As a result of herd immunity – i.e. a large uptake of immunisation – the disease became far less common than it was when we were children and parents have no anecdotal experience of how devastating it can be, causing many serious health problems as well as deaths. They, therefore, feel that it is unnecessary and decide not to immunise their children against measles. Consequently, there are localised outbreaks all over the place every few years.

Absent- that wasn't what was going on here I can assure you- my DD is well aware that childhood diseases are still around- there was a case of Measles in my GSs preschool. And someone mentioned websites? I don't believe I did though! My DD was reading books and medical papers on the subject not random websites.
However some newspapers online do have some interesting things to say and as my DD says- it is a fascinating subject once you start reading around it and not anything like as straightforward as the layman thinks (or some in the medical profession- the nurse who gave my GD her jabs knew very little about the vaccines she was giving)
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/11/should-i-pay-to-vaccinate-my-child-against-meningitis?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
This was an interesting one about the Men B vaccination

My first staff nurse post was on an Infectious Diseases unit and I saw what measles encephalitis, septicaemia and meningitis does to children (in Essex not the developing world). Later as a Specialist Nurse in Infection Control I saw a great deal more of unvaccinated children and adults in intensive care units, the effects of drug resistant TB and good deal else beside. My own daughter had measles at 2 years old (too young for the vacc and asthmatic) she was gravely ill. DH had chicken pox at 33 because his mother had kept him wrapped in cotton wool and he hadn't had any childhood diseases so caught it from our daughter and he was a deaths door for a month.I would always say look at the NHS websites and have the recommended ims and vacs for your children and yourself anything else is taking a big risk.

A highly charged area and possibly the more you read the more confusing things become. I can only comment on what I have seen and experienced in over 40 years NHS. experience. Drug resistant TB is now on the increase. I have personally seen a diagnosed case of Diptheria in this country from someone from the Soviet block. There is evidence of some vaccines not being 100% effective, but any subsequent illness of whooping cough etc., will be less virulent and the child more able to recover with fewer lasting effects. I have seen moribund children with mumps and many other distressing scenes. I have also seen an infant with whooping cough too young for the vaccine. As others have acknowledged a BCG is often done before discharge with neonates in some areas. So all in all a highly charged debate. I have been involved in the original trials of two childhood vaccines including the Men C.

To answer (again) the question about a localised reaction, I have seen many with the thousands of immunisations I have given over the years. It demonstrates one of two things. A good response from the immune system which is good. Alternatively bad injection technique or a child who (understandably) wriggled.

this has been debated many times on my daughter's pregnancy & birth boars & the very informed posters have evidence to prove that these "noxious"substances are either in different forms ( think water & carbon monoxide) or are not enough to make any reaction possible. If too many people rely on the herd immunity then it stops existing.

Speldnan, did you take your DD to a hospital? Sometimes the fever can't be a side effect. I heard that mild fever can be the result of your bodies resistance to germs.

When my children were of an age to have the whooping cough vaccine, there was a lot of bad press around it. Like many parents I was concerned about whether I should let them have the vaccine. I asked my GP, he told me that the risks from whooping couch were statistically greater than the risk from the vaccine. A few years later there was an outbreak of whooping cough - my cousin, aged 9 and unvaccinated, ended up spending a week or so in hospital.
There may always be some risk from vaccines, but the medical profession will always (I hope) look at current research and calculate where the greater risk lies. Anectdotal evidence - such as I used - will not relied on.

Interesting thread. It's fascinating to read of people's experiences and interesting that homeopathy is now considered a 'quack' medicine. It is the same as a vaccine - treating like with like. There is so much we don't know about the human body, It's so good to read of Splednan and her daughter doing some thorough research into conventional vaccines.

I had measles age 4. It left me quite deaf, which has been very isolating throughout my life. It also caused lung damage, so my lungs fill up with mucus, which stagnates and attracts bacteria. I've always been in & out of hospital for intravenous antibiotics. This severely affected my education. I take 18 different drugs and spend 2-3 hours every day doing lung physio. Anyone who thinks measles is a benign childhood ailment should think again. Both hearing & lung damage are common side effects. If you want this sort of life for your grandchildren, you must be crazy.

I have never noticed resistance to questioning on here. What is clear is that the majority of members consider vaccination to be a good thing having considered the downsides and the huge benefits.
I highly respect my GP and his attitude is that parents who refuse vaccination should be prosecuted for child neglect. He came to this conclusion after years of seeing the dreadful effects of childhood diseases on little ones.
Yes, very occasionally a child has a reaction to a vaccination but the sometimes awful effects of common illnesses like measles which are now avoidable far outweigh these concerns.

As a fairly recently retired nurse, I cannot state more clearly that you should have all available immunisations when offered. TB is NOT eradicated in this country ! Many people are developing it, because people did not complete their treatment for it, so we are at risk. As stated by others, if you saw children with some of these illnesses you would want to protect your own from harm...meningitis can be a killer...a friend has a daughter who lost her hands and feet with it...so easy to pick up ! Be sensible...a few days of fever and a sore arm is nothing compared with the devastating consequences from a severe illness. I have nursed a toddler who went blind and deaf from severe TB meningitis in UK ! We are so lucky here to have a great Health Service !

I agree with Luckygirl. We are lucky to have these vaccinations, and so many of the old diseases that killed children have been virtually eradicated. Everything in life is chance - there COULD be side effects blah blah, but we don't want to go back to the 'good old days' where polio and diptheria were rife. Meningitis is a horrible, deadly illness and could strike at any time, it's every parents' worse nightmare. Get it done.

LindaWW you are wrong to suggest that vaccines are the same as homeopathy. Time for you to do some research.

That's is terrible polly - it is such a nasty illness and damaging in some. My sister developed a squint when she had measles as a child, which lead to surgery etc.
Oh dear Linda there is absolutely nothing similar about homeopathy and vaccination. It's been proved that those little sugar pills etc are unlikely to contain even a single molecule of the "something" that is on the label. Vaccines on the other hand are based on good science and the way the immune system operates.
Lots of good sense spoken on this thread. There was recently quite a bad outbreak of measles in S Wales and one young adult died. Whooping cough is also a serious disease - sometimes a fatal one in newborns particularly so mums and toddlers being immunised is the best way to prevent this happening to newborns who cannot yet have the vaccinations done. (lots of distressing videos etc on web...) Steiner schools have a lot to answer for. They are more common in Australia and NZ and tend to attract unvaccinated families. A quick way to spread a disease is to put all the unvaccinated kids together!

Yes. It's what's called 'herd immunity'.

It's true that, because of improved living conditions, we don't suffer from as many diseases as did our ancestors. Children are not crammed six to a bed so are unlikely to transmit diseases like TB among themselves.

That said, the vaccination programme over years has been a big factor in improving health. Nevertheless, there are still families living in poor conditions. Measles, rubella, polio, whooping cough, meningitis, have not gone away and if 'herd immunity' was lessened, would be rife among the young.

My aunt was blind in one eye as a result of childhood measles. I remember being immunised at school for diphtheria, with boosters every so often. I had a friend whose parents were anti-immunisation and her sister lost a year of school through diphtheria which she only just survived. I know my DC and GC have all been immunised for everything possible and GD1 for HPV which should be essential for everyone after puberty and that inclcudes boys, because they can pass on this virus even though they can't have cervical cancer.

I wholeheartedly agree with Luckygirl, and I too feel the asterisks coming on when child vaccination is questioned.Anyone who has lived through the horrifying Wakefield controversy in the late 90s surely can't fail to see that when significant numbers of selfish people opt out of mass vaccination, they put not only their own children at risk but also large numbers of other people's too.
Wiki puts it succinctly: 'The claims in Wakefield's 1998 'The Lancet' article were widely reported;vaccination rates in the UK and Ireland dropped sharply,which was followed by significantly increased incidence of measles and mumps, resulting in deaths and severe and permanent injuries.'
Wakefield is still peddling his quackery in the US having been totally discredited in the UK. We must hang on to this most important community action in these selfish times.

Hear, hear Luckygirl! A few days of discomfort is far better than the invisible scars left by a disease...I've had sight problems all my life due to measles. The vaccine hadn't been invented seventy years ago. These moaners who think they know better than the medical researchers make me sick...perhaps they'd prefer a deaf/blind child with missing limbs?

Where's Anya? who usually gives us an informed opinion on this sort of subject.

Hi Spledan, it is very important that all children have their vaccinations if they are able to. One reason for this is to protect the child, but another is to maintain 'herd immunity'.

When we vaccinate enough children we finally reach a point where it becomes much more difficult for a particular disease to spread, and sometimes we can eradicate a disease completely - in regards to the latter that doesn't mean that the disease won't come back if we stop vaccinating. Bacteria and viruses can still exist in water, soil, faeces e.t.c. When we reach the point where it becomes much more difficult for a disease to spread, this is known as 'herd immunity'.

'Herd immunity' is very important because it helps to protect those who can't be vaccinated. For example, they may be too young, have a health condition, or on rare occasions, are allergic to something added to the vaccine (not the vaccine itself). For individuals who can't be vaccinated, 'herd immunity' is the only protection that they have.

'Herd immunity' also helps to protect those who are immunocompromised, i.e. have a weakened immune system. For these individuals, particularly those with a very weakened immune system as a result of a health condition or medication, an infection, even one that may be seen as a relatively minor infection can make them seriously ill, leave them with permanent disabilities, or kill them. In order to try and protect these individuals we need to keep the spread of infection under control and infection rates as low as possible. One of the ways in which we do this is by maintaining 'herd immunity'.

If we don't vaccinate enough children, 'herd immunity' is lost and those who can't be vaccinated or have weakened immune systems will no longer be protected.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation and scaremongering about vaccines on the internet, and this information doesn't tend to come from reputable or trustworthy sources.

I can understand why you are so concerned that your grandchild was unwell after the vaccination, but a fever after the Men B vaccine is quite common. Also, it is much better than the alternative - serious illness, permanent disability or worse.

If you haven't read it already, NHS Choices has some excellent information on the Men B vaccine that will hopefully help to put your mind at rest: www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/pages/meningitis-b-vaccine.aspx

Apologies for spelling your username incorrectly, Speldnan.

Now more than ever all children should be vaccinated no question as a paediatric nurse for a long time too many children are still dying or left disabled by these infections which are so preventable with vaccinations . With so many more children entering the country the herd immunity is low every unvaccinated child is at risk . As one gransnetter said better a sore arm and a fever for a short while than these devastating illnesses or death . Don't listen to the scaremongers

My generation remembers the horror of polio outbreaks , my brother and I both had measles and were terribly ill. A friend's brother was blinded by measles. My mother's generation had the worry of diphtheria , measles and t.b. My grandmother's generation had one immunization and that was for smallpox. Her generation of children were at risk of everything else. We only ever hear the odd bad reaction to an immunization not of the millions of children that don't have one. The only childhood illness children seem to get these days is chicken pox , unpleasant for the child but incredibly rare to be anything else. Do we really want to go back to say Victorian times when a family could lose several of their children. Just go into any old graveyard to see evidence of that. As another contributor has said, ' just get on with it '.

So relieved to read the (generally) sensible replies to this thread. Although likening homeopathy to immunisations is unbelievable, and indicates the level of understanding out there.

Our society seems to be averse to risk or short term discomfort of any kind, even at the cost of preventing far greater long term pain and harm. A good dose of the reality of life, rather than a cosseted existence is needed. We are so lucky in the UK for so many reasons.