Immunisations

Welcome HelenCH - we like a bit of scientific precision and clarity on GN

My son is off to uni this weekend and is going into a halls of residence. He had to produce evidence that he had had MMR immunisation and also the new meningitis jab (which I think is strain W).

That is great.
I wish schools in the UK were obliged to do likewise. This happens in some countries e.g. Australia. However there is a danger of unintended consequences if there are any get-out clauses. The worst unintended consequence is that "anti-vaccers" will be attracted to schools which are outside the system (i.e. schools that are covered by the legislation) and form little clusters of non-vaccinated kids. Which can then be a nucleus of no herd immunity - perfect for an outbreak to start. This happens in some countries. So if you are going to make it the law, you have to have no get out clause on grounds of "belief" etc
The anti-vaccers in Australia tend to be people who are interested in "all things natural" I was interested when visiting the States to discover that there, they often tend to be far-right "survivalists" who think the state should give them complete freedom in all matters. Picture the cabin in the woods stocked with food and weapons...

That's interesting daphnedil, I'm just wondering if your son had to have an MMR booster recently or whether proof of normal childhood vaccines was sufficient? My son caught mumps at uni despite having had the MMR, and in fact there was a mini epidemic. He was told the mumps part of the MMR was not very effective. Whereas catching mumps as a child usually provides lifelong immunity. It's sometimes not as straightforward as it seems.

No, it was just the normal MMR when he was little. He had the meningitis W jab in the last year at school. I'm not sure whether it was the whole authority or just the school, which is an academy. I don't know what the 'get out' clauses are.

I developed viral meningitis as a child after catching mumps. Apparently, it's not that dangerous, but I remember it wasn't very pleasant. My father also caught mumps from me and had more serious after-effects My children always had all immunisations offered.

I had some involvement with a Steiner school many years ago, and the parents prided themselves on not having immunisations nor accepting antibiotics - it used to make my blood boil and I am afraid I sometimes spoke my mind. I watched a very sick little boy with a rampant ear infection banging his head on the floor and moaning in agony - parents had refused antibiotics. He did recover but is significantly deaf. The parents were proud that they had not "resorted" to antibiotics. Heaven help us! Overuse of antibiotics is to be deprecated, but in instances like this where their use is indicated and therapeutic, then it is wrong to say no.

I have some contact with the new generation of parents at that school and they are a prime focus for outbreaks of many illnesses as they still favour no immunisation.....even though one of the children died of meningitis several years ago. It is not overt school policy, but the parent body egg each other on into greater and greater depths of ignorance and folly.

The pseudo-science and mumbo-jumbo that accompany these decisions are enough to make you despair.

Clearly there are instances when, for medical reasons, immunisation cannot be given; but the sort of determined and willful ignorance that some of these parents pursue is beyond belief.

Interesting posts.

I understand that undergoing a vaccine programme are a requisite of school attendance in Australia, including the chickenpox vaccine.
However, I did not realise that Steiner schools do not insist on this which may be the reason they are quite popular there; one of DD's friends sends her little boy to a Steiner school. She was explaining its ethos to us but did not tell us about the non-vaccination - however, she is very much into nutrition and diet for health, although did not refuse antibiotics when her son was ill recently.

is, not are!

Officially the Steiner educational movement is not anti-immunisation now. However, Rudolf Steiner's teaching is very clearly anti. Childhood illnesses are regarded as good things. Try this Steiner quote for size: "Steiner wrote that vaccination was an interference in ‘karmic activity”, That is, by interfering with karmic processes, delays in spiritual progression may occur. He said, “If we destroy the susceptibility to smallpox [by vaccination], we are concentrating only on the external side of karmic activity”. Corresponding spiritual lessons may not be learned."

Hmm - parents who have looked into anthroposophy (the theory behind Steiner education) will be anti-vaccine; and whilst schools strenuously deny that it is school policy, there are many parents who do not believe in it. Interesting article here: www.quackometer.net/blog/2013/04/steiner-schools-vaccination-and-measles-outbreaks.html

I am not anti-Steiner (two of my children spent short periods in a Steiner school) and I do think that some of the education that arises from the wacky "theories" suits some children very well; but there is no doubt that there is a preponderance of anti-medical progress ideas and a sort of one-upmanship in being as Steiner right-on as possible among parents.

Steiner had some very whacky ideas. As did other contemporaries who made up religions/belief systems. Mary Baker Eddy, who invented Christian Science gave spawn to the "positive thinking cures all ill" style of thinking.
Steiner schools have been criticised for not making it clear to parents that they are actually promoting a belief system.
I used to go the the (very nice) cafe in a Camphill community, which provided employment for many residents with learning difficulties. There was also a succession of young helpers from somewhere in EU (Netherlands?) I was amazed and slightly horrified to discover that Steiner believed that if you are born with learning difficulties it is due to "karma" - something you need to learn in this life that you didn't get right in the previous one. (if I understand correctly...)

Off topic, but I lived for a short time in a Steiner community in the 1970s. By coincidence, my niece was born while I was there. She had Down's syndrome. All I know is that I met with nothing but kindness and true joy from the community there. No one said what a shame, or failed to meet my eyes as others outside did. They seemed to believe that as a family we were blessed, that those with learning disabilities had much to teach the rest of us, and that my niece was a perfect human being.

Off the subject I know, but that reaction has stayed with me over the years and I bless them for it. It was not a perfect community by any means, but they were good people.