Gransnet forums

Health

NHS a sinking ship?

(67 Posts)
tanith Sat 06-May-17 12:37:16

I'm sure most people do agree that our NHS is now under such pressure it's at breaking point.
Who to blame and is it too late ? Discuss!

GillT57 Sun 07-May-17 10:18:03

Agree with comments about Lib Dems. I too have joined, I don't think they could or even should form a government, and they are not trying to, they are trying to get voters to recognise them as a party for strong opposition, a party that will ask questions in the house about those things which affect us all such as NHS. Tim Farron has also been brave enough to suggest a special 1p on income tax which will be ring fenced for health and social care, and I really don't see how anyone could possibly argue against that.

durhamjen Sun 07-May-17 00:45:33

Agree with both those statements, Gracesgran.
I am pleased that all the opposition parties are considering letting Louise Irvine of the NHA stand against Hunt at the general election.

nhap.org/nhas-dr-louise-irvine-is-progressive-alliance-candidate-for-sw-surrey/

GracesGranMK2 Sun 07-May-17 00:32:14

I think Tim Farron and Nick Clegg have acted a good foils for one another.

I do think an hypothecated tax for the NHS makes sense and the LDs seem to be moving towards that.

durhamjen Sun 07-May-17 00:14:40

Nick Clegg is still in there as well, daphne, as the Brexit spokesman.

daphnedill Sat 06-May-17 18:29:45

As a newly joined member of the LibDems, I agree with you about Tim Farron. Initially I had reservations about his evangelical Christianity and lack of support for gay marriage, but he's growing on me. I don't see him as a future PM, but I do see him as a principled politician, who is able to hold his own against opposition. Despite his religious beliefs, he's kept quiet about them and has been loyal to LibDem beliefs. To me, the values held by grassroots members and politicians, such as Norman Lamb, matter.

I've attended a few local meetings and I've never come across such a genuinely caring bunch of people.

Ana Sat 06-May-17 18:23:41

Several posts before mine there, sorry Iam! Think there must be a time-delay on my PC this evening...

Ana Sat 06-May-17 18:21:57

Yes, my post was directed at you Iam and you have answered, thank you.

I'm interested in your statement that "We also need society to be more responsible in the way we use the services."

In what way?

daphnedill Sat 06-May-17 18:20:54

Well said, Iam64. I sometimes think that people are unaware how much people in other countries pay for their healthcare. In most developed countries people pay far more, either via taxation or private health insurance. I would rather pay more via taxation, because I do not want to condemn those who can't pay into a private healthcare system to a premature death.

trisher Sat 06-May-17 18:18:47

Ana there was a'complete redesign' and it was expensive, badly thought out and chaotic. In Newcastle it took over 2 years to implement as the proposed 3 CCGs became only 1. Mergers were originally forbidden but are now being implemented. In fact the whole process is still not finished with.

Iam64 Sat 06-May-17 18:18:07

X posted there daphnedill. I agree with your comments.

Iam64 Sat 06-May-17 18:17:31

Was that question directed at me Ana?
I do not believe that either the Labour Party or the LibDems, or a coalition of those parties will win the next election. At the risk of being accused of supporting the conservatives, my reasons are because I don't see Jeremy Corbyn as a good leader of the LP, don't see him as the majority of the population would have confidence in as Prime Minister. I have the same lack of confidence in Tim Farron.

I do believe that either the LP or the LDems or a coalition of those parties would prioritise the NHS and its staff in a way that the conservatives won't. As my previous post suggests, I'm a regular user of the NHS. I can see the pressures first hand. It's still a fantastic service and I believe that the government should follow the lead of other northern european countries in providing it with more funding.
We also need society to be more responsible in the way we use the services.

daphnedill Sat 06-May-17 18:16:52

The LibDems won't form a government, but they could have enough MPs to make a difference (one day). They have already been honest enough to state that they would raise taxes to fund the NHS and social care, which is what's needed.

daphnedill Sat 06-May-17 18:14:37

Why can't it continue in its present form? That's just lazy right-wing propaganda to justify destroying it?

The country needs an honest discussion about what it wants. The NHS is having to cope with an aging population and increasingly expensive treatments, which might not offer value for money. We need to decide what we are willing to fund - and to raise taxes to pay for it.

The NHS prolongs life for the elderly, saves more premature babies and treats more people with previously incurable conditions than ever before, but treatment isn't paid for by a magic money fairy.

Ana Sat 06-May-17 18:07:38

And do you really believe that if Labour or the LibDems got in the NHS would be miraculously saved?

Iam64 Sat 06-May-17 18:04:59

We spend less from our GNP on the health service than for example, Germany France or Holland. They spend 2 or 3% more, sorry for going all Diane Abbot and not being absolutely certain of these figures but the point is, they spend more than we do.
We are a wealthy country and can afford to put more into the NHS. We should train our nurses, midwives, all health service personnel rather than import ready trained people from countries like the Philippines who need their own home trained staff in the same way we do.
Burseries for members of staff who are not going to earn a small fortune is a good investment. I'm happy for my taxes to be used in that way rather than in giving charitable status to private schools (for example)
I feel fortunate in having a good GP practice, cardiologist and rheumatology consultants, with their specialist nursing staff in support. I'm prescribed expensive medication with the aim of keeping me mobile and preventing me needing social care too early in life.
I do feel we moan a lot in this country, rather than counting the positives. In saying that, of course, I worry that if the conservatives get in with a huge majority the creeping privatisation of all public services will continue.

Christinefrance Sat 06-May-17 18:03:08

I agree with kittylester, teetime et al. I have heard the theory about running down the NHS before, I'm not sure how much if that is true, but don't rule it out. We have to pay more for our health service, there is so much available to us now and technology is constantly evolving at great expense. There is no easy fix if we want more we have to pay more. I am not advocating the American system by any means but there must be some middle way. There is more payment in France but their health service is also in difficulty.

Bobbysgirl19 Sat 06-May-17 18:01:02

Good post GillT57

Bobbysgirl19 Sat 06-May-17 17:57:23

I agree tanith not down to any particular political party. Lack of resources for rmany years and I also think bad management of what they do have. Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians, as the saying goes!

GillT57 Sat 06-May-17 17:52:57

It is a political hot potato, and no one party is brave enough to say that we need a a radical rethink about how we go forward with the NHS. It is something that we all use, and even the most right wing free marketeer supports the free at point of use principles. The comments made by many, both on here and on Question Time etc about administration and costs associated with it, all fail to recognise that without the targets, and cuts to services, there wouldn't be the need for ward managers, and admin staff on every corner. If you watch any of the real life hospital programmes you will see surgeons lined up ready to operate, patients all prepped, and some poor soul of a bed manager trying to move another patient out of ITU into a general post surgical ward, a bed which is occupied by a 'bed blocker' ( horrid term). The problem seems to be at the back door so to speak, rather than the front. So, yes, we need funding, but perhaps better directed, not just flung at it. Funding of social care, convalescing wards perhaps, would move everything along. An expensive surgical team can be standing around for hours, waiting for the ITU bed to become available before they are able to operate. There is also a fair bit of waste in the NHS, on emergency admission, my DH had the foresight to take his current medication with him. Not only was it not used on the ward, it was thrown away. A terrific waste of money. We all know the eye watering costs of USA medical care, but what about closer to home? DH was chatting to a fellow cricket fan last week as they sat in the sun, and the other chap told him about having an attack of cellulitis whilst on holiday in Guernsey. The hospital admission, treatment and medication cost £7000!

Cold Sat 06-May-17 17:37:36

Te government has made it quite clear that the do not intend to pump more money in to keep pace with inflation - the NHS will either be privatised or charges will be introduced.

This has happened in other countries - such as Sweden when the currency devalued in the 1990s.

Lazigirl Sat 06-May-17 17:34:11

It's just not true to say that a wealthy country such as the UK cannot afford the brilliant NHS. It is remarkably efficient considering the diminishing amount GDP spent on it compared to other Western countries. (Kings Fund figures). It is clearly a political agenda to run down and privatise the system, so that insurance schemes can take over. It is an interesting, but concerning fact, that the USA spends far more per head on health, private and state funded, but their life expectancy is lower than ours.

Ana Sat 06-May-17 17:17:14

That's not a 'complete redesign' - in reality it would take years to achieve.

What makes you think any government would suddenly demand that every citizen have private health insurance? Obviously that wouldn't happen, it wouldn't affect those on benefits etc. (including pensioners) anyway.

But rant away if you must...

vampirequeen Sat 06-May-17 17:16:53

We are a wealthy country and can afford a properly funded NHS.

Does anyone really want to change the system to that of other countries? I know too many people around the world who can't afford to access medical help. Does anyone really want to only see a doctor if they can afford to pay for a consultation then pay for any prescribed medication?

Does anyone on here remember the times before the NHS? My mam does and says she remembers her mam and dad being terrified of illness striking and the family hiding from the doctor's man when he came to collect payment.

durhamjen Sat 06-May-17 17:12:42

The Tories did a complete redesign, and look what a mess they made of it.
I know because I was in hospital when it came in.
The new headed paper cost them lots and was unnecessary.
These STPs that are coming in at the moment is another redesign which is intended to shift the burden of responsibility on to the authorities instead of the government.

durhamjen Sat 06-May-17 17:10:16

No it hasn't roses. It needs some more cash instead of privatising it bit by bit, as trisher says.
Lots of people have been saying that for years, tanith. Wea re trying to do things about it, but it is definitely the Tory government that wants an American style insurance based system.
Lots of us will not be able to afford that. Never mind, it'll kill us off when we are asked to either afford medication, food or fuel.

I hope that Burnham does some good with the health and social care budget that he's been given, so we can see which party can save the NHS.