Healthiness

Not in my opinion accurate. Possibly? if a vegan grows its own means of food but farming methods to feed the ever increasing population means the use of chemicals? for high input and to keep the world from starving be they meat or vegan and its the use of chemicals that concern me most.

" and my excercise is, I guess, just walking. "
This is an important point - not just diet, but an active life too.

Whole milk, no alcohol, like 4/5 cappuccinos a day plus plenty of water, no fizzy drinks.
Today, so far, I've had 2 cappuccinos, 1 banana, few black grapes, 1 slice of 6 seeded toast slathered in Guernsey butter (yummy) and a Twix bar.
I eat whatever I fancy when hunger dictates. Last week I ate a whole tub of Carte D'Or vanilla ice-cream (with a few frozen raspberries) whilst watching Strictly. No ill effects.

Growing up in the 40s/50s/60s, I ate a home-cooked diet including roast heart, liver and onions, steak pies, bacon, sausage and a range if meats and fish. No snacking but always a proper hot breakfast, cooked 'dinner' and pudding and cooked 'tea' with pudding. Supper was cocoa, Horlicks or Ovaltine with a biscuit or two.
In my late 20s I decided not to eat meat, game or fowl and the only fish I eat is cod and haddock. I've never eaten shellfish.
Eat plenty of veg (but not sweetcorn/kale/fennel) pasta, full fat cheese/milk/yogurts/butter/artisan breads (not white) and occasionally eggs. I like good chocolate too.
Although mum died of bowel cancer and dad died in his 40s of atherosclerosis, I count myself lucky to be healthy: no health problems or meds and never have needed any, no ops, 5 children normal deliveries no problems, and my excercise is, I guess, just walking.
3 times a year over 43 years I've donated blood which rules out anaemia. Don't have hearing or eyesight aids but I do like lots of sleep and fresh air. I'm guessing that health is not exclusively genes or diet related, just the luck of the draw.

There is a high degree of correlation between a vegan lifestyle and depression perhaps due to the difficulty in ingesting sufficient vitamin and mineral nutrients, a well known drawback of being vegan. I have only known three vegans personally so my 'evidence' is hearsay. They were all young women with mental health issues. In fact the mental instability might well have drawn them towards an extremist and puritanical lifestyle.

As for health generally, I have a family of close relatives who are vegetarians and they are constantly ill. They seem to have no reserves against flu, colds and other viruses doing the rounds. However, they do not take health supplements and this might be the cause of their poor health.

Omnivores do not push their own diets on others while vegans invariably do. In my view this is a reason to avoid this particular bee-in-a-bonnet.

Dairy milk is intended for calves and isn't always that healthy. Cows are given supplements so it is fortified in the same way plant milks are. Oatly barista oat milk is great in coffee btw. Plant milks are a good source of protein and have as much calcium as cow milk.

I remember mum cooking pans full of tripe and onions and I loved it. Creamed sweetbreads too. In fact a lot of offal because it was cheap and nourishing.
Everything we had was home-cooked/baked and I followed it on with my family,apart from the offal save for kidneys in a steak and kidney pud.
I can't bear this mass production of food and tend to visit farmers markets as often as I can for the " real " thing.
I've eaten anything and everything during my life and having such a balanced and varied diet it's kept me in good stead and staved off the dreaded anaemia which a lot of the elderly suffer from and which causes all manner of illnesses and falls.

I have been veggie for close to 40 years...I even went through my last pregnancy when veggie. She was a super healthy baby by the way. I have recently gone vegan. As far as food going through the system...The sweet corn test will tell you how long it is taking for food to pass through you. Yes for veggies it does go through quicker. I am really healthy...can't even remember the last time I had a cold. At 67 I still work full time and have to run up and down stairs regularly and lift heavy boxes. I never have time off with illness. I put this down to my veggie/vegan diet.

Doing my job I often end up discussing people's diets with them and I am great at working out who might be vegan. They certainly appear less healthy than omnivores and vegetarians and often have weird attitudes to food in general.
I believe veganism has become extreme and home to many with eating disorders.

They do though have a very low rate for stroke and heart attacks. Been to Japan and they eat a lot of veg of course rice but low amounts of meat and fish. Our potatoes are considered to be the size of boulders in comparison to what they have so very little eaten. Pasta isn't high on their menu either. Very little sweet stuff as well so that together with their reasonably healthy diet is probably why the good health status. No idea where the high stomach cancer rate comes from.

Skyweek1
It may interest you to try and see the BBC programme on 'alternative milks'. They are not the healthy alternatives they are touted as being.
You can see them being extracted, mushed, dried, re-volumised with all sorts of artificial nutrients added to take the place of those lost in the above (and other) processes.
They are definitely not the healthy alternative we are told they are.

Aren't we all supposed to be made to process meat better than plant based food. Paleolithic man didn't have a lot of plants to eat. Yes berries, but no crops as we know them. Our appendix was apparently an important part if our system at one time but has withered due to our reduced consumption of meat only. Worked with a few vegetarians, some were overweight, some very slim. What was amazing was when we were all sent for health checks the vegetarians had high blood pressure and cholesterol levels. Obviously some may have hereditary factors in those areas but the results did seem to come as a surprise.

I went veggie when I started college in 1971 and never had so much as a cold. Then I met and married my ex who insisted on eating nothing but fry-ups and allowed myself to give up my healthy veggie regime. I hate meat, don't like the way animals are treated and last January tried Veganuary, which I loved. However, I have to admit that as a Type 1 diabetic, my blood sugars don't seem to be as well controlled as I would like.The food is delicious, my only problem is that none of the nut and soya milks work well in coffee and my family are worried about the Vitamin B12 issue. I buy an occasional gorgeous healthy vegan box from Mindful Chef (expensive but actually well worth the money when I can afford it). Overall my diet is healthy, varied, cheaper and no objection. And I'm not responsible for cruel treatment of animals. For the sake of family peace, I've decided to live on a less strict veggie diet, including vegan but no meat, possibly the best of both worlds.

I don't know why the Japanese diet is always promoted as healthy - Japan has one of the highest rates of stomach cancer in the world.

I haven't been to Japan but based on observations of any Japanese person I've ever met, they don't over-eat so are rarely overweight.

Am I being overly simplistic to think it’s the same for us all? No matter if we opt for a carnivorous, vegetarian, vegan or any other eating style surely it’s attention to nutritional balance and our overall lifestyle that makes a difference?

I think you have got it spot on cornergran it shouldn’t matter whether we eat meat /dairy or don’t as long as we follow a balanced diet .

My young relative won’t listen to any advice. Her poor mum is past herself with worry . Doctors have warned her about her very unhealthy diet but it seems to go in one ear and ou the other .

That's interesting, fennel, because my understanding was that meat is easier to digest than much plant material

That's correct Baggs. In the countdown to a colonoscopy you have to follow a regime of a low-residue diet i.e. well cooked meat & fish, white rice, potatoes (no skins), white pasta, white bread tofu, etc. This is to ensure that the colon is completely clear.

You have to avoid fruit, pulses, wholemeal bread, high fibre cereals, etc., this is because they are slower to clear and leave a residue.

Bowel prep

I’m wondering if the health, or otherwise, of those following a vegan lifestyle is actually down to that, their lifestyle. No different to non vegan people really.

I know two people who have been vegan for a number of years. Both prepare their own food which is nutritious, both walk and cycle in preference to car use for local journeys, neither drink alcohol or lack sleep. Both are brimming with energy and rarely ill.

Am I being overly simplistic to think it’s the same for us all? No matter if we opt for a carnivorous, vegetarian, vegan or any other eating style surely it’s attention to nutritional balance and our overall lifestyle that makes a difference?

I’m sorry about your young relative gilly, can understand the worry. I hope she can get and listen to some advice on improving her health.

My 12 year old DGD is a vegetarian ( since last year ) her parents are not. I bought her the young people’s vegetarian cook book as recommended by another GN member and she manages very well indeed. She eats a very good and well balanced diet and is extremely fit and healthy .
However I have spoken before of a young female relative of mine (early 20’s) who is vegan. She is extremely unfit and definitely not healthy . She is in and out of hospital due to acute anemia, she does not menstruate, faints often, has poor skin, she’s overweight, tired and listless . She does not eat properly at all and we all worry about her a lot.

Fennel Yes, many vegans have.

My main concern continues to be that the author of the first article you recommend, is accepting that other factors could be involved and the article does not directly compare two groups of people, whose only difference is that one eats meat and one doesn't.

The second article is the same. Whatever the Japanese eating pattern, it is not comparing the health of comparable groups of vegans and omnivores. Until this is done it is not possible to support the hypothesis that those who eat meat, amount unspecified, are less healthy than vegans.

Baggs it's the indigestibility of much plant based food that speeds its passage through the gut. It's fibrous and bulky. That's great for easy elimination. Herbivores have to spend a lot of time grazing and digesting. They need to eat a lot of food to extract enough nutrients. Carnivores tend to eat much less frequently because meat is nutrient dense. Omnivores' digestive processes are set up to digest a range of foods.

Veganism is a popular (you might say fashionable) choice at the moment but some devotees can be rather evangelical about it. Most of us dislike being lectured about our choices by people who are convinced there's only one way. Not all vegans are like that. They mostly just get on with it.

We've cut down on the quantity and frequency of the meat we eat and certainly don't have it every day, but I won't be going vegetarian or vegan any time soon. We eat a lot of vegetables, fruit, beans and lentils (because we like them) and we eat bread, cereals etc. for fibre. We like meat too.

monica “It also refers to The rarity of adenomatous polyposis syndromes in the native West African contributes to the reduced incidence of colorectal cancer whatever that may be.”

I would take that to mean that adenomatous polyps were a precursor to developing colo-rectal cancer and that because there is a low incidence among native West Africans, that could be a reason for the low incidence of co-rectal cancer.

Your point about averages and comparing similar groups of vegans and meat eaters is well made.

"nowhere does it suggest that eliminating all meat from the diet is the universal panacea."
Has anyone claimed that?

Here's another one about the health of the Japanese:
www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/why-japanese-diet-so-healthy

Vegans will source protein in a number of ways - pulses, tofu, quinoa, nuts and seeds, grains and vegetables. As a general rule people tend to eat way too much meat. A portion is roughly a size of your fist. Processed meats which does include bacon, has been known to be bad for health for years. I ditched meat years ago and have never missed it.

But even this article does not draw a direct link between eating meat and not eating meat. It talks about how the meat is cooked, links meat eating with other unrelated changes in life style that come with affluence, obesity and a less active life style. It also refers to The rarity of adenomatous polyposis syndromes in the native West African contributes to the reduced incidence of colorectal cancer whatever that may be.

The whole article is shot through with provisos: methods of cooking, levels of carbohydrates in the diet. but nowhere does it suggest that eliminating all meat from the diet is the universal panacea.