Scots dementia expert says coronavirus outbreak could be 'quite useful' as it will kill off hospital bed blockers

No, she doesn’t think they need killing off - just that it would be “quite useful” for hospitals dealing with delayed discharges. You just don’t use that kind of language at this time to describe older people, and someone in her position will know that and should have chosen her words far more carefully.

If there is a shortage of intensive care beds it has already been said that they will go to those with a chance of recovery, so some of us are doomed anyway!

I agree with SirChenjin’s post of 12:35. A friend who’s husband is currently in hospital with dementia is working with the Dementia Trust to improve services. How nice to know that friend’s husband is deemed worthless and should be got rid of.

As for funding, Scotland already has higher taxes than England but my friends and I see no evidence of it being used to help anyone we know of. God knows what they’re doing with it.

trisher Apparently you are not supposed to state the obvious now because it upsets some people.

There is little need to state the obvious, because it's.... well obvious! There are ways of saying things and she should be astute enough to know the soundbites that would be taken from her speech, which actually covered more than the headline. That these would be distasteful and distressing to families of those groups she identifies is also obvious. Thought and kindness cost nothing.

Not higher just distibuted differently
Free from tax up to £ 12,500
taxed at 19% up to £14549
taxed at 20%up to £24,945
Taxed at 21% UP TO £43,430
taxed at 41% up to £,150,000
Taxed at46% over £150,000
MOST people dont pay more tax and those who pay the extra penny are happy to do so .The lower rate is where tax should be less when families struggling .
In a caring society people who earn more should be prepared to pay more .Thats something my late father always told me ,he was happy to pay a bit more so others who struggled could pay a bit less.I dare say you need to have socialist views to understand that a penny in the pound over £25k ..not all of the £25 k isn't bringing hardship
I wont answer you're "see no evidence of it being used to help anyone you know" There is certainly evidence to prove that its being spent where its needed

Baggs is right when she says "Of course the example is horrific. She says that too. But it's also, possibly, the truth, whether we like it or not".

One of the benefits of being a former leader is that you can express your own views (based on many years' experience) without having to toe the party line. The Prof is simply telling the truth as she sees it and highlighting how horrific and shocking that is when it is pointed out bluntly.

paddyanne, no, she does not appear to have any filters.
You'd think she'd have learned some along the way.

But, although she may be an ex-employee of NHS Scotland she seems still to have tremendous influence throughout the country, not just Scotland, someone who has had a profound impact on healthcare in the UK. The word care is being used loosely here.

She may be stating the obvious and it may be a way of drawing attention to the crisis in bed blocking but I suppose Hitler thought some humans were an inconvenience too.

She's cagey about her own age. But she is no spring chicken.

As a relative of someone just diagnosed with dementia, as the friend of someone with dementia, I find her attitude and her words offensive.

Yes, thankfully the SG sorted out their error after some pushing that meant many higher rate tax payers were paying less tax. They were told by the many experts who advised them in the run up to the rollout of the new Scottish tax code but chose to ignore it at the beginning.

Anyway, it means that the extra tax I (and all my colleagues in the NHS) pay now pays for my whopping pay increase, which is great as it effectively means we’re exactly where we were a few years ago. As for ithybei g spent where it’s needed - define that? Block grants to councils have been cut and ringfencig/Govt devised policies that are laid at the councils doors mean that local services are being cut drastically.

Very insensitive and quite shocking.

she seems still to have tremendous influence throughout the country

She absolutely does and as such, her honest and forthright views should have been held in check at this time. There’s certainly a conversation to be had about how health services are funded and delivered, but using the wide scale mortality of older people as a way to score political points in the face of an epidemic is offensive and needless.

She may be stating the obvious and it may be a way of drawing attention to the crisis in bed blocking but I suppose Hitler thought some humans were an inconvenience too.

I suggest that it is blocked beds that are seen as inconvenient, not the people in them. That is the truth too. It is appalling that our social care system is so bad, and so uncoordinated with the health care system, that people, actual people, are left stuck on hospital beds when they should be being taken good care of at home.

This, to my mind, is the whole point of the person's comments in the article.

They are termed "bed blockers"

I can remember the term being used 25 years ago about a friend's father in Bristol.

I can see the point but it is her delivery which is at fault.

She does not see patients as people.

There is not a person in the NHS or care system who already well aware of the failures of the system, believe me Baggs, believe me - but at the risk of repeating myself, using older people as political capital in the face of an epidemic is massively offensive and ill judged. It simply wasn’t the time to talk about it being “quite useful” from a service delivery POV that older people will die and she’s contributed precisely nothing to the emergency planning.

One too many believe me’s there

SueDonim Well you do not know me well, but you do know OF me. With my only income being a reduced state pension and a private pension of £180 per month, I no longer pay any income tax. My DH's pensions go towards his Care Home Fees (he is currently self funding) with the balance of the £3,500 per month met from his savings until they run out. OH does still pay a small amount of Income Tax on his pensions.

However, over the past year OH has had free personal Care both at home and later in the Care Home via the SG and I benefited from free twice daily carers under FPC for 6 weeks while I was home alone with a broken arm. My across the road neighbour is now planning to return to work because of the additional free nursery provision for her wee one. I could go on........

I take it that none of your circle benefit from Free Prescriptions, Bus Passes or have youngsters in receipt of Free Tuition?

There will always be people saying things in ways that some find offensive. For me what's important is what they're driving at rather than their style of delivery. As an Ecuadorean friend used to say when he was searching for the right words: "Listen to the meaning, not the words."

I think we probably all agree as to the meaning of what was said, namely that if some bed blockers die as a result of being infected by Covid19, there will be more room in hospitals for other people infected with Covid19 who might recover if they can get hospital treatment.

The meaning isn't offensive, just true.

SirChenjin, thank you for your excellent posts on this thread.

You've renewed my faith in humanity .

I speak as a mum of someone who is on the frontline of an ED at the moment.

She was just talking facts - no diplomacy at all but never mind, better than a load of rubbish.

It did occur to me that a pandemic really might keep the annoying worried well away from GPs and A&E, allowing the truly ill shorter waiting times.

Another thought is that anything that discourages people from flying can't be all bad - (sorry).

And the pollution in China is well down, Hetty58
Greta must be thrilled.

Yes Hetty she was certainly right in saying that we need to look at how services are funded and delivered but as I’ve said numerous times, this was not the time to make political capital out of older, vulnerable people dying. The NHS is under a huge amount of pressure at the moment and everything is ramping up several gears to mobilise the workforce and put emergency planning measures in place - the focus is very much on reducing the impact of the epidemic. Prof Andrews has contributed absolutely nothing to this and has simply perpetuated the view amongst some that older people (also known as people who have paid taxes all their lives and are just as entitled to good care as the rest of us) are nothing more than dispensable bed blockers.

If we want to free up beds in readiness for this epidemic then we all look more closely at our own behaviour, which means reducing our alcohol intake, long weight, stopping smoking, taking regular exercise and so on - and not focusing on older people as the only group that it would be “quite useful “ to lose.

Can you imagine anyone else in a similar position elsewhere in the health or care sector talking about their patient or service user group in such a similarly dismissive and offensive way? Or it is only OK because it’s older people?

Losing weight

I am not that easily offended but I find her statement offensive.

Granny23 I’m all in favour of a bit of extra tax being paid to benefit others. I’m not arguing as to whether those who can, should pay more as it seems self-evident to me that in a decent society, we should.

What I’m saying is that it doesn’t seem to have benefited people where I am, with deteriorating public services in schools, the NHS, transport and so on. Yes, my youngest dd has benefited from no tuition fees, but that was in place before the new tax rates. Unfortunately, the 14,000 well-qualified Scottish youngsters who were denied places at Scottish universities last year aren’t benefitting from free tuition at all.

We also do have free prescriptions and so on, but all these were in place before the new tax rates. What is the extra money being spent on? That what I want to know.

I echo Curvygran, SirChenjin thank you for your posts on this subject.