This 'vulnerable' label ----

Are you enjoying yourself?
I suppose if you have no hobbies it could be fun.

How on earth do you think it is possible to properly increase social distancing in sectors where demand has increased four fold?
The warehouses arent somehow eight times bigger! The corridoors arent 8 times wider! They cant work slower to allow for more spacing because people sat at home are RAMMIMG them with orders!

You wont believe any of the links Ive posted so look at your preferred news source (its on them all) about what unions and workers are saying about warehouse/delivery worker conditions and mental health in light of all the extra ordering of non food/medicine items.

They could not self-distance of course, unlike those other firms which have been able to introduce enhanced safe working practices.

Yes, flight attendants were very worried too, that they might contact and/or spread the virus in such confined spaces as planes.

I totally agree notanan. Many, many of our population are not able to work in safe conditions. Hence today's news about the number of transport workers who have recently died from the virus. No 'social distancing' for them.

Because we are self-isolating does not mean we are cut off absolutely from the outside world or those working in it notanan
We have friends and families still working.

If you could provide links to verifiable information,
and not just anecdotes about some people, it may help us understand and make the relevant decisions.
If you think what others on here say is fantasy perhaps you could benefit us all with your knowledge.

Hearing about desperate people who have health problems, or who cannot obtain childcare leaving vulnerable children alone, being forced to work and not being furloughed is alarming indeed.
I'm sure everyone would wish to avoid using those particular firms.

You are saying, then, that many people are being forced to work against their will and that the firms who assure us that they are ensuring safe working practices for their employees and only keeping on those volunteering to keep firms going, are all lying.

Boots have announced that theyre going to reduce and in some cases stop shopping for non essentials in their stores.

The people who think wanting stuff = needing stuff have now got it taken away for everyone. Some people do need only one kind of soap/shampoo, or need to check all labels carefully. But because everyone thinks that their non-essentials are essential, and that put Boota staff and customers at too much risk its no longer viable for boots to allow browsing for anyone

I think some people who have the luxury of isolating themselves are imagining that everyone who is working still is in the prime of their lives, with no co-morbidities or risk factors or vulnerable household members.

And that workplaces have been remodelled into havens of social distancing

That is not whats happening out there.
There are over 65s still working. There are asthmatics still working. There are people with immune comprimised household members still working. There are non-keyworkers who cant get childcare AND cant get forloughed, still having to work!

There has been utter fantasy described on this thread about what it is like in workplaces out there right now. All safe and no contact and social distancing... full of low risk staff only.... that is fantasy for the vast majority of workplaces right now

I agree with your post of 16.53.35 too notanan. There are also people who do things because they can. They don't think about consequences.

People in a number of distribution depots and postal workers have complained about lack of PPE and possibility for social distancing.

I have never said people shouldnt get what they need whatever that means to individuals.

I said that what is ordered has consequence to someone even if you're not going out yourself. And if you wouldnt be happy for a loved one to talke that risk for you for that item, but will have some strangers' loved one do ot for you, it is a want not a need

notanan2 I think you are being very judgmental.
I agree with HAZBEEN Have you any idea what it is like to be in complete isolation. We 73 and 76 are shut in with 5 with special needs 3 Down's Syndrome 1 deafblind cerebral palsy and youngest 14 with a rare syndrome. Yes I have been using Amazon as they all have complex health needs and we cannot go out. Thankyou Amazon 3 jigsaws and some sensory lights today!

Now I think you are arguing for the sake of it.

In your very first post you mentioned craft supplies, knowing that these would be something that make a huge difference to people on here.

Anyway, I’m sick of repeating myself, so I’ll leave it there.

Where I disagree with you is over who decides what is essential

I have not stated what is/isnt essential. Quite the opposite. I have stated than companies cant make lists for you because it differs from person to person, so instead you have to ask yourself: "would I risk exposing myself or my loved ones to get it"
If the answer is yes, its probably a "need" so go ahead
If the answer is no, its a "want" so its not okay to put others through unneccesary risk and stress for it.

I think we all understand that, though. We are not stupid.

Where I disagree with you is over who decides what is essential, and over the idea that having lots of people making journeys is somehow preferable to having a few people, taking recommended precautions, doing it en masse.

Regarding the decision over what is essential, I believe that this should be for individuals to decide, taking into account the risks to themselves and others. If we all do this, there would be a lot less ill-feeling and people getting upset and worried about things they can't control. We can (and should) be policing ourselves, and unless someone else is putting us at direct risk, we should leave them to do the same.

There is, of course, a third possibility, which is that you know better, and should be formulating the rules for the rest of us. Good luck with that.

I didnt make the rules, I just understand that a non essential journey is still a non essential journey if you avoid doing it yourself but order someone else to do it for you instead.

So if you wouldnt consider it essential enough for you or yours to do, you shouldnt be getting others to do it for you. Its still a non essential journey because of you. It has the same consequences even if you remove those consequences from your own household!

There are many others, though, who would prefer to be at work and keeping their firms going because they will still want jobs when this is all over.

As I said, people want to work. They want to help keep essentials running.
They object however to having to work at increased pressure, which makes social distancing impossible^ to cover the huge surge in non essentials orders

Thanks, Callistemon.

Notanan, it's not whataboutery. I am asking why, if the people who are making the rules for the rest of us to follow are using the PO, the rest of us should not. Either the rules are not worth following, or they are, and using the PO is ok.

There is, of course, a third possibility, which is that you know better, and should be formulating the rules for the rest of us. Good luck with that.

Doodledog good post

Of course some will and their unions, if they are in one, must insist on safe working practices.

However, even if a firm introduces the most stringent of practices, there are always some workers who would prefer to be furloughed and stay at home.
There are many others, though, who would prefer to be at work and keeping their firms going because they will still want jobs when this is all over.

As I said, I am sorry if you or a member of your family are being forced to work against your will notanan and the conditions are not safe.
That is wrong.

The government has taken the decision to have millions of letters delivered across the country

Whataboutery

I honestly don't see why, if someone is having a grocery delivery, that it matters if the order contains chocolate and gin amongst the lentils and turnips. It really makes no difference

It doesnt just appear. The more you order the more pressure on packers who have to go out into the isles to get it for you.

but most firms are being much more accommodating of their staff than forcing someone to work at the present time.
This is not the story coming out of that sector at all. Look on whatever news source you prefer there are multiple accounts from warehouse workers on all of them saying that they feel that their lives are being risked unecessarily. And social distancing is impossible due to all of the extra orders

I honestly don't see why, if someone is having a grocery delivery, that it matters if the order contains chocolate and gin amongst the lentils and turnips. It really makes no difference, and self-denial is entirely pointless in that circumstance. Leaving the house specifically to get chocolate or gin is a different matter entirely, though, as that could, potentially, put others at risk.

The government has taken the decision to have millions of letters delivered across the country. Is this in contravention of its own policies of 'flattening the curve' and reducing risk to the population, or are they taking the view that there is minimal risk in having them delivered?

The question of Amazon's ethics is in many ways separate from this discussion, IMO. We would need numerous threads to cover tax evasion, the exploitation of workers, the whole concept of zero hours contracts, the effectiveness of customer boycotts, and much more besides. There are those who already boycott Amazon, and they, I assume, will continue to do so during the crisis. Others don't, and won't be now.

I still feel that we should all concentrate on doing what we can to minimise the risks to ourselves and others, and let everyone else do the same. High blood pressure is a risk factor in this crisis, so it could be argued that getting one's knickers in a knot about what others are doing is putting strain on an already stretched NHS

I think my seeds are essential. British firm, work force consists of those who volunteered to be there and safe working conditions.
I hope my medication will be delivered but I have a feeling I may not be lucky.

Our friend who is a lorry driver is very upset at being laid off because the places he delivers to have closed due to Government restrictions. He wants to be at work

The only things I have ordered from Amazon in many a long time are books for my Kindle.

Do you have experience of working in a warehouse, then notanan? I am sorry if you are being forced to work when you would rather not, but most firms are being much more accommodating of their staff than forcing someone to work at the present time.

I don't think notanan is being ridiculous at all. I do, however, think some people are selfish and thoughtless and have lost sight of what is actually essential.

I think its more that people think they onlu have to avoid non essential journeys that they take themselves
And dont think journeys they order/commission come into it at all. So long as they are not personally taking the journey.

Out of sight out of mind I guess.

Others think they have no liability for the decision and say "well if I wasnt supposed to order X it wouldnt still be available"

But as I said up thread, the onus has to be on the orderer. The company cant say "sinks are/arent essential" because customer A might have broken their only sink and customer B might just fancy refurbing the spare en suit.

People have to be accountable for what they order and remember that youre still creating journeys and contact for others even if you yourself are home/safe etc

growstuff, I LOVE Maslow. I know I'm a teacher, therefore familiar with him, but still.

Daughter and I had a conversation about not shopping (for non essentials) online during the virus. I've added some non-essential bits to our grocery order because GS has his birthday next week and even though we're not making a big deal, we wanted to celebrate in a small way. But we're NOT ordering the usual gifts etc.

I can't bear the thought of those poor Amazon workers, who work in appalling conditions at the best of times, running around, risking contact with others, getting frivolous stuff ready for those that are safe at home on their sofas. Supermarket staff, healthcare workers, transport workers. They are essential.