New Zealand has held a referendum on Euthanasia

Of course they can choose to be there, the patient can choose for them to be there - but treating and assisting to die- just have to remain separate in principle.

Biba. I do know about the strict rules in Switzerland. I am just not so confident the regulations would stay without dilution in other countries.

I am not so sure about separating treatment teams from the patient at the end. If I were the patient I would want the people who had cared for me and in whom I had developed trust, to be there at the end. As a nurse. I would like to be with the patient too. Having said that, I do understand what you are saying. It would, I believe, depend on the individual case and the circumstances.

Tweedle- have you read my post as to how it is done in Switzerland- and the amazing safety measures put in place to ensure there is no slippery slope or room for errors.

But I do believe that it is best for the treating team, nurses and doctors- to be totally separate.

I am 100% for it. I hope it comes in my lifetime.

I mentioned abortion laws early on in this site. It has been legal in the U.K. for fifty years in which time it has gone from being very strictly controlled to no control at all. That is my worry about legalising ‘assisted dying’. (I shall call it that as it seems people do not like the word ‘euthanasia’ which is, according to the dictionary ‘The painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma’.).

I think it is entirely irrelevant whether abortions were illegally performed before legalisation or not. I, and others, are concerned that the slackening of the controls over abortion could be mirrored by assisted dying.

Sukie, I feel exactly as you do. There is a place for the help to ease someone into a peaceful passing and, in my nursing experience, I have seen it done.I have also seen and heard of frail, vulnerable patients being pressured into changing wills, bullied into giving large sums of money to relatives and other horrors. Imagine if those relatives were able to influence people to sign away their lives!
Cast iron, irreversible controls would have to be put in place. I am not convinced those controls would stay.

particularly 'helpful' for those with illnesses where they know they will end up choking slowly to death- or when multiple treatments have not worked and cancer returned with a vengeance.

The NZ proposal is very limited in scale. It's only for people who have a terminal illness and with fewer than 6 months to live. They must also be considered mentally capable of making the decision - no-one can make it for them.

MissAdventure

The young woman in the video was in Belgium, I think, Biba.

I think for the terminally ill, it's right to be given the choice, but I struggle to accept that someone with mental health issues could be granted the same choice.

Yes, I remember the case and I often think about this one. This would not be possible in Switzerland btw.

In the case of this young woman, it was clear that she had had the deepest and darkest form of depression which had not responded to any treatment. If I remember too, several botched attempts at suicide. I do believe the doctors knew that her only wish was to die, and that she would commit suicide- and that it was best to help her do it in the least 'horrible' manner. Still, I feel very uncomfortable about this case.

There was a case a couple of years in Switzerland. An elderly member of EXIT, ill for quite a long time, on his own and with no quality of life- asked EXIT for assistance. His brothers put in an objection to a Judge and won. The gentleman committed suicide in very unpleasant circumstances.

A friend of my dad's, an old gentleman who comes to our monthly luncheon for the eldery (not at moment/Covid dixit) - wanted to ask EXIT for help. His son said he must not and stopped him. He threw hiself from the attic window onto the concrete below. Is that really better?

But that is the point- the system as described in Switzerland ensures people can change their mind until the very last minute, second even. It is discussed with them just before- checking that there is no hesitation or doubt whatsoever- and the person can just say 'Actually I am not ready' - the can say they are totally ready, pick up the potion and put it down again.

It has been shown in Switzerland, that people who are members and know that they will have the choice when the time comes and they can't bear to continue- actually choose to live longer, and often to allow the natural course to take them to the final journey. This is because they have absolute certainty, that they won't be let down, and the final choice will 100% be theirs.

Whereas in the UK, people have to make up their mind and travel to Switzerland when they are well enough to do so, lucid enough to do so - and once there, know that it is absolutely final. Often far too early, when they could still enjoy some more weeks or months with their loved ones.

I am amongst those who have said they are in favour of euthanasia however I am reminded of something I read. A woman kept asking her family to give her an overdose of her medication because she wanted to die. Eventually they decided to leave her medication by her bedside instead of taking it away - they said their goodbyes and the following morning went into her room expecting to find her body. She was still alive - when it came down to it she found she really didn't want to die.

It makes me wonder how many of us who are now saying we would want to die would actually go through with it

Oopsadaisy4 Fri 30-Oct-20 12:38:09
^The law in New Zealand will be that the patient will be in the ‘Last 6 Months of their life’.
Not sure if that will set peoples minds at ease though.^

Last six months of life? Sounds like you are in the hands of clairvoyants, it doesn't put my mind at ease.

Fundamentally, what we voted on in New Zealand was not a vague aspirational idea but a long debated, serious and reasoned document that either would or would not become law, depending on the results of the referendum. There are checks and balances, the criteria are strict and the process is voluntary. I voted in favour but I have no idea whether I would choose assisted dying were I terminally ill with very limited time left – but I should like to have the choice.

Froglady, a power of attorney just isn't adequate as decisions that attorneys make 'in your best interests' can be easily overruled by medical staff. After all, they can claim superior knowledge in health/medical matters.

An advance decision (living will) is what you need:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/end-of-life-care/advance-decision-to-refuse-treatment/

I've mentioned before a documentary I watched, about a man who had a motorbike accident.
A real free spirit, he used to take off on adventures, was as fit as a flea, and, as expected, had always said he would never want to survive if an accident or illness left him disabled.

After his accident, he spent months in a coma, and was then considered to have 'locked in syndrome'.

He could only move his eyes, I think.

His family fought for him to be allowed to die, and things were heading that way.
Days before the final decision was made, it seemed that he actually responded to questions in a way which showed some understanding.

Over the course of weeks, staff asked him a variety of questions in all kinds of different ways, and it became clear that he was capable of communicating by blinking.

When asked, again, by different people and in different ways, he made it very clear that he didn't want to die, and that he understood how very disabled he was.

His family were really distressed, because they said that there is no way he would have wanted to carry on living, and continued to fight for his right to die.

I can't remember the rest, but obviously he continued to be cared for, as it was his choice.

Brit here, lived in NZ 33 years. The legislation has passed and will become law in 12 months time. There are limited circumstances in which a person can request this and a lot of safeguards. I'm 60, in good health. I voted yes, having watched a loved one endure unbearable suffering that you wouldn't put a dog through, I'm glad it's passed.

I would vote for it, and everyone I know would too, because everyone knows someone who has suffered a long and painful death, and we fear the same for ourselves. Animals are put to sleep painlessly to end their suffering because it's right and kind to do so. Why can't a human being be afforded kindness and dignity in the same way? In a civilised country like ours, we should not have to suffer a lingering undignified death.

My friend's husband had a stroke in his late 50s.
Although he gave up work, he took another degree afterwards and got a first.

My friend’s husband had a series of strokes, culminating in a severe one. He moved into a nursing home with, supposedly, only weeks to live. They kept him ‘alive’ for 15 months. After a while he was being fed by syringe through his stomach. He was unconscious and his arms and legs had retracted, so he lay almost curled into a ball. Although his wife had signed a ‘do not resuscitate’ notice he was treated with antibiotics several times, after contracting chest infections. She was told that they had to keep him comfortable, even though he was unaware of what was going on.
Luckily his treatment was free, as he was assessed as a medical case. I think that the nursing home made a fortune out of his stay, and he was easy to care for, requiring only changing and sponge baths, turning over regularly, and a quick squirt of food at regular intervals.
By the time he finally died his wife was worn down with visiting him, and seeing him in such a state. She also died, less than a year later, of a heart attack.
I am strongly in favour of euthanasia, though I also have forebodings that it could end up, as abortions have, with a far too liberal interpretation of the rules.

The young woman in the video was in Belgium, I think, Biba.

I think for the terminally ill, it's right to be given the choice, but I struggle to accept that someone with mental health issues could be granted the same choice.

Froglady

Maybe this is the time to think about having powers of attorney in place. I am a single person and have given powers of attorney to my sister and brother-in-law and they know that I do not want to kept alive and/or resuscitated after a heart attack or stroke.

It depends on how severe a heart attack or stroke is though, Froglady.

Some people make remarkable recoveries and live fulfilling lives for very many years after treatment.

It's difficult in the case of patients with dementia even if they have made a living will. Who is to decide when is the right time to end their life if they are not able to give final consent?

sorry massive screw up in posting above

In which country MissA?

Generally speaking, in Switzerland, it is not available for depressed patients- unless it is very long term and nothing has worked, and it is deemed that suicide by other means will ensue.

And not available for anyone with Dementia or Alzheimers.
Meaning that someone diagnosed has to make a decision quite quickly, far too early- or the option could be taken away. One thing I have discussed with OH and our daughters.

I have known several people, like my two sisters in law- be EXIT members and absolutely clear that they do not want to live the indignities of advanced dementia- but waited too long and the choice was then taken away from them. One of them kept asking to be let go, but was not sufficiently compos mentis for her to be accepted, even with a very clear advanced directive to that effect and no opposition from family.

This is something some of us are fighting for now- for clear advanced directives that would mean that in the case of Dementia or Alzheimers- a clear request would be accepted despite signs that the person is not totally in 'charge of their mind' anymore. The advanced directive would go in their favour.

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New Zealand has held a referendum on Euthanasia (110 Posts)
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Oopsadaisy4 Fri 30-Oct-20 08:36:02

It looks as though it will become law when the postal votes are counted.

After our Brexit referendum and the way it split the Country, I was wondering if a referendum on Euthanasia would be a good idea?

I would vote for it.
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Nagmad2016 Fri 30-Oct-20 14:21:14

I would definitely choose this option. I have just watched my mother in law deteriorate physically and mentally while suffering from oesophageal cancer. She died with little dignity and it was heartbreaking for those of us caring for her to see her struggle for her last breath. We would not let animals die in this manner, it is time for this decision to be shared.
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kgnw28225 Fri 30-Oct-20 14:56:51

Abortion, when it began over 20 years ago now, was very strict when it began. Now you can do it DIY yourself at home! So Euthanasia will be the same, ending up with something like - When you get to pensionable age, and can’t work any longer, instead of a pension you will be euthanasia-ised. You don’t think this could ever happen? It is fact that there are too many people alive now for the planet to sustain. What a perfect solution if there were a law in place to solve this problem. It would not be this generation ( US) that it would be activated upon but our children/ grandchildren etc. Be careful what you wish........or vote for?
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suziewoozie Fri 30-Oct-20 15:11:01

kgnw28225

Abortion, when it began over 20 years ago now, was very strict when it began. Now you can do it DIY yourself at home! So Euthanasia will be the same, ending up with something like - When you get to pensionable age, and can’t work any longer, instead of a pension you will be euthanasia-ised. You don’t think this could ever happen? It is fact that there are too many people alive now for the planet to sustain. What a perfect solution if there were a law in place to solve this problem. It would not be this generation ( US) that it would be activated upon but our children/ grandchildren etc. Be careful what you wish........or vote for?

There certainly was diy abortions last century - or rather find a woman in a back street to do it for you leading to death/ infertility/ morbidity. That was for the poor, the well off went to private clinics. The good old days.
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suziewoozie Fri 30-Oct-20 15:11:51

I think you’ll find abortion has been around for a tad more than 20 years
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Summerstorm Fri 30-Oct-20 15:12:35

I definitely think assisted dying should be possible. I’ve fought cancer of the bowel, then liver, then gallbladder. It’s now in both my lungs, they might be able to slow the rate of growth but cannot cure it. I fully intend to keep going while I have some quality of life, but as my husband died almost 30 years ago don’t intend to carry on when either the pain is really bad or my independence goes. I’ve thought about a trip to Switzerland but actually would much prefer to die at home in my own bed when I feel that time has come. I’ve tried to explain my decision to my family and friends and hopefully it will be some time yet before I make that decision
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maddyone Fri 30-Oct-20 15:20:03

I wish I could firmly say I have an opinion, but I don’t because I can see for and against the argument. I honestly don’t know how I would vote if it was to be put to the electorate.
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sodapop Fri 30-Oct-20 15:24:21

I'm so sorry to hear of your health problems Summerstorm, quality of life is the important thing I think as well. I hope you enjoy your life for a long whole to come.

Obviously capacity would be one of the main criteria
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sodapop Fri 30-Oct-20 15:28:42

Sorry posted too soon. The issue of learning disability/dementia etc should be covered by this..
I agree with another comment up thread about keeping people alive, just because we can doesn't mean we should.
This is such a complex problem but could be resolved.
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fraz1946 Fri 30-Oct-20 15:46:06

Yesterday my best friend died. We had been friends for 47 years. She died in a hospice and it took 18 days of unmitigated misery and suffering for her to die. The problem was she was not in pain. So morphine could not legitimately be given to her. I know this hastens death, it did for my husband 4 years ago in the same hospice. My friend suffered from extreme nausea and dry vomiting. Nothing alleviated this. She had been unable to eat for 5 weeks and was skin and bone. Witnessing her dreadful dying process has made me get the forms to join Dignitas so that I can choose when I die because the thought of going thru what my friend went thru horrifies me. You really would not let that happen to an animal yet there seem to be many who object to the right to die being made law. There are many 'reasons', most of which appear to relate to either religious principals or to the difficulties of ensuring the safeguarding of those whose relatives might want to be rid of them, or who themselves might want to die in order not be a burden on their children. I am sure that there are many very bright lawyers in the UK who could frame a good enough law so that those who wish, can end their lives in a timely and dignified manner.
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Caro57 Fri 30-Oct-20 16:09:02

The Liverpool Care Pathway-was badly mis-interpreted.
Demonstration of Capacity is the issue and it will be interesting to see how this age long debate will be resolved
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RhysTaylor1 Fri 30-Oct-20 16:16:02

For the first time ever, 50 % of GP s are in favour of end of life meds, where needed. See the Dignity in Dying website for UK info, even better, become a supporter.
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Jumblygran Fri 30-Oct-20 16:27:33

I am in NZ unfortunately this is a badly written law with not enough safeguards against coercion. The New Zealand Medical Association is against it they regard it as ‘ unethical and harmful to individuals especially vulnerable people and society’. Where does it leave the Hippocratic oath which says to do no harm.
There are poorly defined areas which means there will be court cases to decide what the law means. Does this mean that lives will be taken in the meantime? As Sodapop says it is a complex issue and I wonder if we really know what we have voted for.
I don’t like the idea of people suffering unnecessarily But life is a gift to be valued.
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biba70 Fri 30-Oct-20 16:31:25

from [Biba70]
- but about assisted dying when terminally ill.

In Switzerland, you have to be a paid up member of a Society, for instance EXIT, as I am. Then you need to apply for assistance, with a medical dossier and making your case. You are then interviewed by a trained person to assess the situation and your particular reasons and case. This is done on your own, and the person is trained to eek out any hesitation, and also any form of coercion from relatives, etc. Once they are convinced that this is what the person really wants, and that the person does suffer from intolerable medical conditions and pain, they pick a date. On that day, and again on their own to ensure no outside cohersion or influence - the person is interviewed again to ensure this is absolutely what they want, that they are clear that there is NO way back, and that no-one is putting pressure on them in any way whatsoever. The person also has to be clearly compos mentis, and fully able to make the decision. (so Alzheimers or Dementia are excluded, apart from the early stages).

Then, in their own home, with or without family or friend/s- in their bed, favourite armchair, garden even if it is not overlooked- with favourite music, or 100% conditions of their own choice- the person has to take the potion unaided and die painlessly and quickly. It is all video recorded. The medical team, be their nurses, GP, specialits, etc, are NOT in any way involved- the treating team and the assisting team totally separate. As soon as the person has died, the Police is informed and they are given the video recording so they can check all was done absolutely legally.

I would definitely vote for the version described above.

To die with dignity will be wonderful.

youtu.be/SWWkUzkfJ4M

This is long, but the first few minutes shows enough to be worth consideration.

Would the choice to die be available for depressed people?