No jab no job

Galaxy

Not sure how I feel about that either, lots of the decisions we make about control of others have unintended consequences.

You are right, of course, and this is not the way I usually think, but I do feel strongly about it. I suspect because of what happened to my son when he was a baby, as I described upthread.

Hetty58

MissAdventure, same here - but what about all the hospital workers and nurses who refuse vaccination? Surely, the public have a right to refuse care/treatment by a person who's not vaccinated?

Yes. And a right to refuse to have their hair cut, or their children taught by a deliberately unvaccinated person, or to sit next to them in the theatre or on the bus.

Not sure how I feel about that either, lots of the decisions we make about control of others have unintended consequences.

*I don't believe in compulsory vaccination for all, though.

Employers should be able to make it compulsory for jobs - and schools for entry. After all, you can choose another job or home school your kids!*

No, I don't believe that it should be compulsory either - I said so in a previous post. I do, however, think that it should be up to individuals to choose not to socialise with those who refuse to have it. It comes down to informed consent.

I don't think that people who are unable to have it for medical reasons should 'stand out' in any way, though. However it is recorded for those who have it should be the same for medically exempt people, eg a 'passport' or certificate should not differentiate between the two groups. It should only be those who refuse who should be seen to be different.

MissAdventure, same here - but what about all the hospital workers and nurses who refuse vaccination? Surely, the public have a right to refuse care/treatment by a person who's not vaccinated?

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
Having said that, for all my absolute, unshakeable belief in allowing people freedom, I would be livid if my loved one was in a care home with staff who chose not to be vaccinated.

I think at the moment that there’s too much huffing and puffing about this issue ( I mean in general ). It’s interesting that quite a few of us on here are undecided or have misgivings or think there’s a lot of complex issues to consider. A gung ho no holds barred approach won’t work - not least because of the law( which is an important issue). The govt won’t legislate imo - if they did we’d be looking at the ECHR eventually I’m sure not to mention a goodly number of their own backbenchers.

I know that the NHS are looking at this in detail already, and whilst it won’t happen immediately, I do think the duty of care to patients/clients will ultimately assume precedence. It will be a long battle. The odds are that they will start with a clause in new employees contracts, but that won’t be the end - legal challenges, employment tribunals etc etc to follow - interesting times ahead. The difficulty for employees is I think that all the religions have endorsed the vaccine, millions of people have already been vaccinated with minimal side effects, etc. so there are very limited grounds for refusal that will stand up.

Doodledog I agree with:

'I think it is most unfair of people to refuse to vaccinate their children on the grounds that because most others have done so there is less of a risk to their children.'

My first two children didn't have the whooping cough vaccine, on doctor's advice - due to epilepsy in the family.

The third and fourth did have it, though, again on doctor's advice.

Why? Because, by then, so many stupid parents had decided to not vaccinate (for no good reason) that the risks from whooping cough were far greater.

My kids had to take a small risk, the lesser of two evils - directly due to the irresponsible behaviour of others.

I don't believe in compulsory vaccination for all, though.

Employers should be able to make it compulsory for jobs - and schools for entry. After all, you can choose another job or home school your kids!

Skating on thin ice to try and run homes with all staff fully vaccinated, as I thought.

This s an interesting link outlining the legal position

www.carehome.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1642095/can-care-homes-force-staff-have-covid-vaccine

But, there are gaps between the vaccination and the efficacy.
It must vary from person to person.
Tests just tell you your test was negative now; no claims are made that you didn't have covid anymore.

Casdon

As a carrier do you mean MissAdventure?
Being vaccinated is thought to reduce the risk of transmission from what they have evidenced so far. I don’t think that’s the key though, I think employers will need to be able to demonstrate in court that they have taken every possible step to protect the vulnerable who due to their condition are unable to be vaccinated. To do that they will need documented evidence that the carers are vaccinated, otherwise the courts could find the employer negligent.

But also adequate PPE and infection control surely? The vaccine is not enough on its own and especially if infection rates in the community are still relatively high

As a carrier do you mean MissAdventure?
Being vaccinated is thought to reduce the risk of transmission from what they have evidenced so far. I don’t think that’s the key though, I think employers will need to be able to demonstrate in court that they have taken every possible step to protect the vulnerable who due to their condition are unable to be vaccinated. To do that they will need documented evidence that the carers are vaccinated, otherwise the courts could find the employer negligent.

Jaxjacky

Doodledog in France all children must have had 11 vaccinations before being accepted into school.

Quite right too, IMO. Unless there is good reason why not, I don't see an issue. I wouldn't support compulsory vaccinations, but at the same time, I think it is most unfair of people to refuse to vaccinate their children on the grounds that because most others have done so there is less of a risk to their children.

I feel the same about Covid - it infuriates me when people say that they will wait and see what happens to the rest of us before having a jab. Who do they think they are?

Is it possible to pinpoint the virus to one person?
It's not a criticism; my brain is a bit frazzled.

nightowl

Galaxy sorry I didn’t acknowledge your earlier post.

Lovetopaint - like suziewoozie I wonder whether your DD’s action was legal? I’m not getting at her (or you) just wondering about the legal situation. I guess at some point this might all be tested in the courts.

Yes but when you have so many people as your personal responsibility and already one of them being isolated because an agency worker worked while positive you will do everything you can to protect them. Fortunately all the staff wanted the vaccination. If push came to shove she would have to relent but she really cares for everyone in the home and would be heartbroken if she didn’t make every effort to protect them.

Yes if it puts a clients life at risk. It’s a stark choice for both employers and employees, it will take legislation I imagine.

Does a clinical reason override a psychological one?
A religious one?

Doodledog in France all children must have had 11 vaccinations before being accepted into school.

In other circumstances I’d agree suziewoozie, but the risk for an employer in not taking action to protect vulnerable clients is probably greater than the risk of sacking an employee who refuses vaccination without a clinical reason. It’s a very tricky area indeed, but for the employee it will certainly polarise their choice about being vaccinated or not.

MissAdventure

There are ways and means of ousting people, by finding their work practice lacking, giving them shifts which are detrimental, by turning a blind eye...
Prevalent in care type settings, I've found.
Most people will resign or accept being moved elsewhere sooner than have it on record that they're a "bad carer".

Yes - completely unequal balance of power. These days though being sacked or resigning has serious implications if needing to claim benefits. It’s just a mess and I hope that more will be done about educating people who are vaccine hesitant in a non judgemental way. We shouldn’t just accept that it serves them right if they are forced out of their job.

There are ways and means of ousting people, by finding their work practice lacking, giving them shifts which are detrimental, by turning a blind eye...
Prevalent in care type settings, I've found.
Most people will resign or accept being moved elsewhere sooner than have it on record that they're a "bad carer".

If someone is already employed, then refuses to be vaccinated and is sacked this is potentially unlawful. However, in reality this means nothing. What would the sacked employee do? The waiting list for Employment Tribunals is incredibly long and unless the worker is in a union, she’d be pitted against an organisation who could afford a solicitor. Completely powerless so in reality employers will be able to do what they want with no redress

I wouldn't abandon "my" people anyway, but if someone did get covid I can pretty much guess who will be looked at suspiciously (me!)