Is Gender Critical the new Pro Life?

trisher

Mollygo

Trisher cracked a joke!???

If I mistake me not, trisher was the person who introduced mice into this conversation.
Is this yet another field of expertise?

I realise some peole as they get older allow their minds to close and don't want to know or learn anything new. It's very bad for you. Learning and aquiring information creates new neural pathways which may help to prevent Alzheimers,

Really depends on how you want to improve your mind. Reading stuff on here makes me think you want to force people to know about this, get educated, what a horrible phrase, sorry more interesting and relevant stuff to improve my mind with. Climate change being one of them, after all it comes to pass there won’t be much point in all this, will there.

I can't make sense of your first paragraph above, trisher. I picked up on the bit where you told me what the discussion 'should have been about', but then it makes no sense at all.

Of course mice don't need to recognise the sex of humans to reproduce, and I didn't say, or imply (accidentally or otherwise) that they did. Nor do you need to spell out that mice don't pick up 'gender signals' from humans, as I very much doubt that they will, whatever 'gender signals' are - mice/human interaction is probably very limited outside of laboratories and vermin extermination.

Maybe you could spell out what 'gender signals' actually are though? I think that many of us would be very interested to hear your thoughts on that.

This is only an iternet disucssion forum and we aren't the generation effecting change. We're here out of interest, not making political policy.

You're so, so wrong there Gagajo. It's "internet discussion forums" like this one, Mumsnet and many others, who have been quietly discussing these issues for many months; realising that what started off as a minority of people wanting, and deserving inclusivity, has surreptitiously had a completely different anti female and exclusionary agenda. And it's because each of those "internet discussion forums" became aware that it wasn't just them that had concerns as to how this was impacting on natal women, that they joined forces, spoke with a collective voice and campaigned for recognition as to what the majority of women are losing on the alter of a tiny minority men.

I'm grateful, that forums such as this one, have given women a platform to add their voices to the growing disquiet about the erasure of women and that this has now been picked up by the House of Lords and the BBC who are discussing it openly.

We won't wheesht now Gagajo.

Doodledog Do you read your own posts? I realise they are very long and checking them may take some time But it wasn't me who introduced reproduction into a discussion which should have been about cross-species identification of sex. But you said
Sex is the basis on which we reproduce. Being able to recognise the difference between male and female is vital to the survival of a species
From which I gathered that you must know that identifying the sex of humans was necessary for mice to reproduce. Otherwise why say it?
The interesting thing (do I really need to explain this) is that mice will not pick up the gender signals given out by the human involved. Now as the mice don't reproduce with humans how or why they do that is actually very scientifically interesting, but has absolutely nothing to do with reproduction.

There is some interesting research on the site as well about men. In cultures where they are routinely expected to share childcare they have lower levels of testosterone. As some people tie testosterone into levels of violence. It is possible to speculate that should we stop regarding male and female roles as significantly different and involve men more in childcare, levels of violence for future generations might drop.
It also perhaps impacts on female athletes like Caster Semenya who has naturaly higher levels of testosterone than is currently acceptabe for female athletes.

Oh you have, Galaxy. The whole OP is a very thinly concealed series of insults, as have been the numbers digs throughout the thread. Yes, we may be getting tetchy now (me included), but at least we don't resort to the 'some people' pass/agg behaviour and the sly digs and generalisations.

Mice don't reproduce with humans, trisher. I know that at times things have to be spelt out very clearly, but I didn't think I'd need to point that out.

Thinking about the complex societies that some animals live in is interesting though. I mentioned meerkats, as I watched the Meerkat Manor series on TV a while ago, and it was fascinating. They have very clearly defined gender roles that are necessary for the survival of the group. Deviation from these roles can result in a meerkat being banished, which can result in their death.

I am not suggesting that human societies are, or should be so gender-dependent, but as animals have been brought into the discussion it is interesting that sex and gender are separate in animal societies too. Males and females obviously need one another to reproduce, but after that their roles are very different. As a much more developed species we now have the luxury of not needing to live within such strict boundaries, which ties in with the idea of working towards a society that is even less gender-bound. That doesn't mean that we can ignore sex differences, though.

Just to recap so far we have been called homophobic, having no life experience and close minded. Yet apparently we are very rude. Oh I forgot irrelevant and all powerful. Am sure I have missed some.

Mollygo

Trisher cracked a joke!???

If I mistake me not, trisher was the person who introduced mice into this conversation.
Is this yet another field of expertise?

I realise some peole as they get older allow their minds to close and don't want to know or learn anything new. It's very bad for you. Learning and aquiring information creates new neural pathways which may help to prevent Alzheimers,

Trisher cracked a joke!???

If I mistake me not, trisher was the person who introduced mice into this conversation.
Is this yet another field of expertise?

As for people (or mice, alligators or giraffes) being able to recognise sex, I don’t know why it took a research team to ‘discover’ that. Sex is the basis on which we reproduce. Being able to recognise the difference between male and female is vital to the survival of a species. I agree that gender roles are superimposed onto sex roles (in humans anyway- some animals such as meerkats have complex societies based on gender roles), but that is the point that we have been making- you can (as a human) opt out of one set of those roles in favour of another, but you can’t change sex.
I didn't know recognising the sex of humans was necessary for mice to reproduce.

GagaJo

This school yard bickering is pathetic. Is it really not possible to discuss things that we disagree about without resorting to being rude to each other?

I don't care that you don't agree with me. It isn't a personal attack on me that you hold a different opinion. This is only an iternet disucssion forum and we aren't the generation effecting change. We're here out of interest, not making political policy.

Are you serious? The level of Mean Girls style sniping from you and trisher is off the scale, yet you complain about ‘playground bickering’?

The double standards are unbelievable. It’s one rule for you two and another for everyone else, whether that’s about language policing, thread diversion, answering questions, issuing ‘demands’, policing the number or length of posts, etc. It goes on and on.

You seem to think that you can decide the length of posts, the number of posts made by an individual poster, whether a question is just a question or a DEMAND, whether this is a debate (which requires answers from both sets of participants) or simply one side asking questions and the other ignoring them and more.

Saying ‘some people’ doesn’t stop a dig from being a dig. If you are being snide, it is just as snide to refer to your victim obliquely rather than talk to them directly - just less honest and more cowardly.

As for people (or mice, alligators or giraffes) being able to recognise sex, I don’t know why it took a research team to ‘discover’ that. Sex is the basis on which we reproduce. Being able to recognise the difference between male and female is vital to the survival of a species. I agree that gender roles are superimposed onto sex roles (in humans anyway- some animals such as meerkats have complex societies based on gender roles), but that is the point that we have been making- you can (as a human) opt out of one set of those roles in favour of another, but you can’t change sex.

But GJ you’re policing again. Evidently must now consider their views ‘school yard bickering’.

Not sure about mice but yes I would say that human beings are very good at recognising peoples sex.

Well to move the debate on and in the light of the proposal of a genderless society -what if it isn't possible? .There's a really interesting little bit on the website I linked to about laboratory mice apparently they react differently when handled by male technicians from how they react when handled by female technicians. Now that would seem to indicate to me that some basic recognition of sex exists which means that try as we might we are going to react differently to different groups. And also that perhaps the gender indicators we use everyday are actually more use in establishing equality than we realise.
There wasn't any info about trans technicians by the way. And I don't think that it in any way diminishes the trans persons experiences. I think it's just interesting for everyone.

Actually I am not sure that's true. Changes in the law around the census, the investigation of safeguarding at the tavistock, the banishment of no debate, etc etc were driven by in the main women who werent young! I would say MN was instrumental in changing the debate.

*internet.

This school yard bickering is pathetic. Is it really not possible to discuss things that we disagree about without resorting to being rude to each other?

I don't care that you don't agree with me. It isn't a personal attack on me that you hold a different opinion. This is only an iternet disucssion forum and we aren't the generation effecting change. We're here out of interest, not making political policy.

Chewbacca

^Did I miss a new GN rule that GJ polices the posts and decides what posters can say?^

I'm awaiting a rebuke for posting a thread @ 22.01 that's too long! Maybe we should be given a maximum word count.

I don't care how much you post Chewbacca. Or anyone else. But Mollygo (or anyone else) doesn't then get to nag about people who also contribute just because they disagree with her.

Mollygo

Sadly you think anything that argues against the fact of male and female is interesting.
I don’t doubt we shall hear more about it from you.

I don’t doubt we shall hear more about it from you.

More or less implying she goes on about it Mollygo. Which means the same thing as being prolific.

As I said. Many many others on here discuss things at enormous length and repeatedly.

Anyone who thinks Male rapists should be in prison with some of the most vulnerable women in our society has lost any sort of moral compass. I have been listening to the idea of 'luxury beliefs' and that is one of them
Those who spout such nonsense are usually protected by their class and position of privilege in society. A bit like the mantra of sex work is work, sung by people who know that they themselves and their daughters wont have to live the reality of it. That's for other women to endure.

Thanks Chewbacca, I wouldn’t have read this speech if you hadn’t posted it. His points about women in prison are accurate as well as sensitively made. Men shouldn’t be in women’s prisons.

It was, indeed, an excellent post, and as the content has come from someone influential (and a man!) some notice might finally be taken of the things we've all been saying for years.?

I loved that post Chewbacca maybe there should be a vote up or vote down facility like some of the online newspapers? I'd guarantee you'd be streets ahead

Just done a catchup on MN. Fingers crossed that luvvie of the TRAs Dr Adrian Harrop will be handed his arse on a plate from the disciplinary. Be still my beating heart ?

Did I miss a new GN rule that GJ polices the posts and decides what posters can say?

I'm awaiting a rebuke for posting a thread @ 22.01 that's too long! Maybe we should be given a maximum word count.

Doodledog the 'someone' is deliberately chosen so they don't get deleted or banned. Never underestimate the guile of a TRA they have a barrage of support and advice! The only consolation is such desperate attempts reveal the concern it's all unravelling