Is Gender Critical the new Pro Life?

GagaJo, you accused me (and others) of bigotry a few posts upthread because we said - in response to a direct question from you - that we know we are women because we are adult human females.

That is an insulting thing to say, so I assume that you are willing to explain your reasons for the accusation?

What is bigoted about saying that a woman is an adult human female? How would you answer your own question (which was ‘ How do you know you are a woman?’).

This question is the very crux of the difference in our respective points of view, and several of us have answered from our perspective. Rather than just accusing us of bigotry, or using playground jibes such as ‘ Who made you God?’, it would be really helpful if you could return the courtesy and give us your own point of view.

If that’s aimed at me Gaga, if you mark exam papers I hope you read them more carefully. I didn’t say what you are claiming I said, but there you go with a bad-tempered, incorrect response.
Just to help you out, I’ll quote what I said.
How is it bigotry to say a TW can claim to be a TW?
How is it bigotry to say a TW cannot be female? That’s science not bigotry.
That’s my polite response to your little rant.

GagaJo you said :

I will not be responding to demands and insistence for answers.
I will, however, enter into polite discussion.

but you haven't done that.

Yet you have found time to make several bad-tempered sounding posts.

It was stated early on that most gender critical people don't have any of the views that you claimed for them.
You were asked why you believe that they do.
You have not answered.
You still have opportunity to do so.

And in case you'd missed the original post, THIS thread isn't actually about trans people. It's about gender critical people and you've just played to the gallery with your statement that a transwoman can't just call herself a woman. Own goal. Again.

It is bigotry to say that a trans woman cannot just call herself a woman.

Who made you god?

GagaJo

Same old, same old.

Anything new to add, beyond the same bigotry that has been rehashed so many times?

Actually GJ, when I read your posts or even notice you have started a new thread, my immediate reaction is, “will it be same old, same old”.
Sadly the answer is yes.
How is it bigotry for me to say I am a woman because I am an adult human female?
How is it bigotry to say a trans-woman can claim to be a trans-woman?
How is it bigotry to say a trans-woman cannot be female? That’s science not bigotry.
Unlike some posters I don’t expect an answer from you that won’t be ‘same old, same old’ you always post.

Why does anyone? Because it a subject they find interesting.

There is no requirement to meet the needs of other posters, so don't imply there is.

My views are very well elucidated. I think the problem is that you disagree with them. Which is fine, BTW.

I didn't say or imply 'entertainment'.
I hoped for elucidation of your views. Why did you start the thread otherwise?

*though

That is the constriction of language thought. Language with terminology which defines XX as female and XY as male. When in reality there are many many people who do not fit the binary categories of what is deemed man and woman.

Society is reconsidering that this binary is a social construct. And that very many people do not fit within it. Trans people are the most visible. But also the stone butch lesbian. The 'Mollies' of Victorian England. The athletes who are not allowed to compete as women because they naturally produce too much testosterone. Those with a range of sex variations which are currently pathologised, in the same way homosexuality used to be, in the DSM. Those that are non-binary.

There are many ways to be human, which do not fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman'. So, great. If you deem yourself a woman. All well and good. But by saying your version of woman is the only version, you are deny others their right to their own definition.

So, no. To all of those on here who feel a man is a man and a woman is a woman, and there is nothing in between. I do not agree with you. I don't care what is in someone's underwear, or what their hormone levels are, or if they want to tuck unwanted genitals, or bind unwanted breasts.

And if you're not getting the entertainment you wanted in the thread (I'm not paid to entertain you), go elsewhere.

Is your womanhood only based on your gonads? Isn't that a bit too 'biology is destiny', for a feminist?

Biological sex defines who is female / woman and who is male / man.
Other than where this fact is relevant, it shouldn't be taken into account.
So there should not be discrimination in eg education, employment, finance.

Surely you can understand that GagaJo?

I was surprised by the incorrect generalisations in your opening post, however I looked forward to an interesting discussion where you would make clear the basis of your views.
I have been disappointed.

GagaJo

Same old, same old.

Anything new to add, beyond the same bigotry that has been rehashed so many times?

Philip K Dick quote "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

The bigotry and hate directed against natal women is just unbelievable. Seems some hatred is acceptable but any questioning of a sacred belief is wrong. No need to be able to actually say what a woman is, other than it's a feeling that certain people feel. I wonder at some people who proclaim to have grandsons or granddaughters, how on earth do you know what they are? Not by their genitals or chromosomes, hopefully not by stereotyping them according to what they want to play with, so until they're fully cognisant you 'impose' your own classification??

Just a question, Doodledog. How do you know YOU are a woman, if you think a transwoman can't just know she is one? Is your womanhood only based on your gonads? Isn't that a bit too 'biology is destiny', for a feminist? Continue with the trans erasure, by all means. But make sure you continue with your 'I'm pro trans but...' arguments. As I said in the original post, so similar to 'pro-life' supporters.

Really? It looks like it was a question to me.

Never mind. Here's one for you. How is it 'bigotry' to say that a woman is an adult human female? Do you have a better definition?

That wasn't directed at you Doodledog. I know your perspective on this subject already.

So when I ask you a question by name I am DEMANDING, but you can ask me, and it's ok? One of the numerous double standards on these threads.

I'll answer it, though, although my answer is the same as those of the others. I know I am a woman as I am an adult human female.

If you can show me anywhere that I have 'erased' transpeople, I would be very surprised, as that is not where I am coming from at all, as I get tired of saying.

As I keep saying, transpeople remain the sex they were born, but that doesn't erase them.

They should be counted in statistics as trans, not as their declared gender, and that does not erase them - in fact it might illuminate things about them that are currently unknown and be to their advantage.

They should not be imprisoned in jails intended for their transitioned gender, but those designed for their sex (or better still have trans wings of their own), That would not erase them and would help to keep them safe.

They should respect the fact that they have not changed sex but gender, so if a member of the opposite sex asks for a same-sex person to examine them intimately that should also be respected. Again, no erasure.

Same old, same old.

Anything new to add, beyond the same bigotry that has been rehashed so many times?

GagaJo asks
“How do you know you are a woman if you think a transwoman can’t just know she is one?
I’m an adult human female so I know I’m a woman and of course a transwoman can know she is a transwoman, whoever said that wasn’t true?
A TW just can never be a woman (adult human female).

I don't know about Doodledog but I know I'm a woman because I am an adult human female. My sex gives it away. My womanhood is so much more than my sex, but it is my sex which defines me as a woman. Biological sex is the most inclusive category of all women across all nationalities, cultures and throughout human history. I can't remember where I saw that quote but I'd like to see anyone give a logical answer against it. I always find it so insulting when TRAs mention 'black women' as an argument as if black women are not just women like me but somehow 'other'.

Great post Doodledog I found it very easy to read through, and it was a great summary.

Strewth!

Implying that your experience is greater than those making assumptions about others, is a bit of an own goal really Chewbacca.

Just a question, Doodledog. How do you know YOU are a woman, if you think a transwoman can't just know she is one? Is your womanhood only based on your gonads? Isn't that a bit too 'biology is destiny', for a feminist?

Continue with the trans erasure, by all means. But make sure you continue with your 'I'm pro trans but...' arguments. As I said in the original post, so similar to 'pro-life' supporters.

Soz, VS, I didn't get through all that?.

It just makes me sad because I think some people (sorry) do see the issues but don't comment on them and I suppose that's easy to do when people are passionate about these topics and want their points heard.

Is it really worthwhile being heard by any means necessary?

I get called passive aggressive all the time for simply trying to put things in a polite way which isn't always all that easy because I am passionate too.

There's no need for it and it's just divisive in the end because actually no one is listening to each other, just looking for something they can pull up or bringing in their personal life or things said on completely unrelated issues. Or just resorting to one line put downs that don't show any reasonable discussion at all.

Then people wonder why it's eventually just the same few names on these discussions going around in circles. Demanding answers to the same questions.

It's exhausting to read and participate in.

goes to bed

Thank you Doodledog. By not posting on this thread for so long allowed the OP and ‘some’ or ‘any number’ of posters to dig a deep hole for themselves -and keep digging.
Galaxy I’m sorry for your loss.

Yes, I get that. All of it.