Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

That's not what happened to caster semenya. It really isnt. We have discussed this before. The decision was made because CS has one of five conditions which do not allow CS to participate in womens sports.

Lol

VioletSky

I can doodledog and the answer is "yes"

But I can't explain why or I will be "playing victim"

What would you be playing victim if you answered a simple question?

GagaJo

Exactly trisher. Historically, those menwomen walked among us and we were unaware that being a man or a woman was a choice for them. Now, some of them are out of the closet. No real difference, other than their being open now.

Of course there was a difference. As just one example, those participating in women's sport were women. Women therefore had a chance of winning, and a transwoman attempting to cheat her way onto the podium would be disqualified to mass opprobrium.

Galaxy

Sorry but everyone knew. Women pretended in order to be kind.

I've just rethought this and not is it a sweeping statement it is one of the most dismissive and sexist comments I have ever read. It's the reason women like Caster Semenya have been subjected to constant testing because other women athletes complained they looked like men. It's not only sexist it's racist because black women's bodies differ from white women's. The concept that you can just tell by looking is one everyone interested in equality dumped some time ago.

I can doodledog and the answer is "yes"

But I can't explain why or I will be "playing victim"

Ok, if you want to look at this thread on this forum, let's do it.
Below are edited highlights of this thread. I have concentrated on exchanges between you (GagaJo) and me, although there are numerous examples of attempts at silencing coming from other TRAs on the thread. Had I included all of them the post would have exceeded the attention span of 'some people', so I kept it (relatively) short.

First, the OP - a summary of a research project carried out by Jack Turban as the study’s lead author, and Alex Keuroghlian as the senior author. Keuroghlian is an MD, associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and director of the National LGBTQIA+ Health Education Center at the Fenway Institute.
My first comment is to question the validity of the research, based on the obvious flaws in the information provided, even though it is a summary.

Your response (GagaJo)
'But of course, naysayers will be negative.'

I ask how you can make sweeping statements about 'the students you've had who could talk about their feelings, compared to the ones who could not', and the numbers you are talking about, and it turns out that it is 4. Three at one school, although you only taught one, and one at another. So, two you've known well?

Your reply was accompanied by a dig suggesting (erroneously, as you have zero knowledge of my career) that I prefer 'paperwork' to helping the students. When you were pulled on this by another poster, you persisted in this accusation.

You then pick up on comments about this being a complex matter best left to those who know what they are doing, with 'leave this to the experts' (your quote marks).

I comment that dismissing experts is populist, and you twist this to say that I said that support for the trans movement is populist, and dragged in feminism and gay rights, to suggest that I would not support those causes . When I pointed out your attempt at spin you ignored me and did not retract.

You claim (based on Googled statistics, of which you say there are many) that 1 in 4 transpeople have attempted suicide, and more than 80% have considered it.

When questioned on the validity of this (complete with figures given by posters and concerns about the baseline for measuring these numbers) you attempt to shut us up with 'oh, I don't want to argue' with the implication that those picking up on the huge errors in what you are saying are doing so for sport. You also suggest that I withdraw from the discussion (cancellation?)

When I refuse to withdraw, you draw up rules of engagement. No 'arguing, unpleasantness or demands' - all defined by you (eg a 'demand' can be any request for clarification, or a reminder that a post has been ignored).

Then more accusations of 'silencing, hostility and attempts to shut up TRAs'. Oh, and anyone speaking out against you is bullying.

When people (several) ask not to be referred to as 'cis' your response is to silence our requests with 'don't read the posts if they upset you', as though that were possible when they don't come in sealed envelopes with 'Offensive Content' warnings.

After attempting to control speech all the way through the thread, you say (of posts that simply question what you are saying) 'this attempt to control the speech of others is cancel culture', and 'The gender critical shut debate down time and time again.' Ironic in the extreme, particularly when you accuse Rosie of diversionary tactics ?. This, from someone who writes incendiary posts to which people take time to respond, then calls any requests for clarification of what has been said 'demands', and refuses to engage.

Finally (at the time of writing) you suggest that anyone disagreeing with you is not behaving like an adult, but is guilty of 'Cancel culture. Shut(ting) it down. Causing arguments and unpleasantness.'

Phew! Can you honestly say, in the face of that, that it is so-called 'gender critical' posters who are trying to shut down debate?

Galaxy

You said that people were putting themselves first, it has also been said (not by you) on this thread that there is an orchestrated and deliberate approach to silence trans people and that we are operating a cancel culture. I am going to keep challenging statements like those and its going to be really irritating

OK

Mollygo, I haven't got the interest to go on ad nauseum on trans threads, because the gender-critical dominance just bores me.

I took a phone call between typing and posting. I see you'd already made the point Galaxy.

GagaJo

Exactly trisher. Historically, those menwomen walked among us and we were unaware that being a man or a woman was a choice for them. Now, some of them are out of the closet. No real difference, other than their being open now.

Transwomen with complete male bodies have always used women's facilities, been housed on female hospital wards and in female prisons, been admitted to communal areas when people are in a state of undress, competed in sports? I don't think so. Of course there have always been people who wished to live their lives as the opposite sex, but because they were respectful of 'private' spaces they didn't encounter hostility in those areas. I would expect most of us will have encountered at least once a 'woman' in the ladies toilets who was being as unobtrusive as possible, and we were happy to go along with that.

Oh dear. GJ
Cancel culture? Your new phrase. So when you go on ad nauseam trying to shut posters up who don’t recognise ‘your truth’ that isn’t cancel culture?
Evidence of cancel culture, in the way it is being applied AHF being applied to trans? Still waiting for that.
Also still waiting for which of your statements is true about hormones being given to teens, which was the OP and then contradicted in a later claim.
Is ignoring posters cancel culture I wonder?

Yes so ill informed that those issues were discussed on MN years ago. How women had to circumvent the patriarchy in order to achieve what they wanted in a deeply Male dominated society. And that hopefully we have made enough progress now that people dont use the 'dresses as a man' phrase.

You said that people were putting themselves first, it has also been said (not by you) on this thread that there is an orchestrated and deliberate approach to silence trans people and that we are operating a cancel culture. I am going to keep challenging statements like those and its going to be really irritating

Here are some who made history blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2021/03/women-who-dressed-as-men-and-made-history/
There would be loads who just lived quiet unrecorded lives

Galaxy

Sorry but everyone knew. Women pretended in order to be kind.

It's never been just women. There have always been women who lived as men. But that does show how ill informed some people are. And some of the people had to die before they were discovered.

Galaxy

Then it would be helpful if you could specify who you are talking about rather than making sweeping statements. I would not say those who arent gender critical on the thread are racists for example.
I would say that was a racist remark 'Billy'.
It means people can make any claims they like, and these claims often are not just true.

Galaxy we are reading the same thread and the same comments, I'm sure you can differentiate between who thinks this study is not comprehensive enough or not fact based enough and who doesn't without me tagging a list of names or isolating one unfairly.

It's not a sweeping statement to address ideas I don't agree with as it is not accusing everyone of having those ideas

Just realised I have made my own sweeping statement. Generally people can tell what sex people are.

Sorry but everyone knew. Women pretended in order to be kind.

Then it would be helpful if you could specify who you are talking about rather than making sweeping statements. I would not say those who arent gender critical on the thread are racists for example.
I would say that was a racist remark 'Billy'.
It means people can make any claims they like, and these claims often are not just true.

*men and women

Exactly trisher. Historically, those menwomen walked among us and we were unaware that being a man or a woman was a choice for them. Now, some of them are out of the closet. No real difference, other than their being open now.

Rosie51

trisher

Doodledog

As I have said ad nauseam, but you either don't read or don't listen, I would prefer to say it as it is. Woman, Man, Transwoman, Transman. No implied difference in status, no differentials in rights. No confusion when it comes to sport health, intimate examinations and so on. No need to force women to give up their identity to please transwomen.

I know what you have said Doodledog but let's face facts that is actually trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. Just as woman now encompasses those born and those who have chosen to become women, so man encompasses those born and those who have chosen to become men. So as I see it you have a choice you can stick with woman, in which case you might be either born or trans, or you can ask for some other form of address you find acceptable. You don't like cis. So choose something else, because if you just stick with woman then you could be either, which doesn't bother people like me but apparently you want some delineation.

So what you're actually saying is a group of people decided to bully their way into a category that didn't include them, and the original category just have to take it? Nice. Will that equally apply to any other groups who wish to bully and take over another group's identity?

No one "bullied" me Rosie51 for the simple reason that I know they have been there all the time. They haven't suddenly appeared from anywhere they've just opened up, taken off their veils and revealed them selves. In doing so they have been subjected to abuse and condemnation just as people who are different always are. The sad thing is that some of those doing the abusing are women.

Rosie please explain how trans women (and trans men if they matter here) are bullying anyone by simply existing and wanting to ide tify as the gender they believe themselves to be

Galaxy

Could you please explain how my statements which have included 'I would like young people with gender dysphoria to receive adequate medical care" are putting me first.

Galaxy If you haven't personally said something I think you can safely ignore comments about it as not directed towards yourself.

Despite the apparent "sides" in these discussions, views do differ from person to person and it wouldn't really be constructive to place everyone in some sort of "same" box