Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

trisher

Doodledog

As I have said ad nauseam, but you either don't read or don't listen, I would prefer to say it as it is. Woman, Man, Transwoman, Transman. No implied difference in status, no differentials in rights. No confusion when it comes to sport health, intimate examinations and so on. No need to force women to give up their identity to please transwomen.

I know what you have said Doodledog but let's face facts that is actually trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. Just as woman now encompasses those born and those who have chosen to become women, so man encompasses those born and those who have chosen to become men. So as I see it you have a choice you can stick with woman, in which case you might be either born or trans, or you can ask for some other form of address you find acceptable. You don't like cis. So choose something else, because if you just stick with woman then you could be either, which doesn't bother people like me but apparently you want some delineation.

So what you're actually saying is a group of people decided to bully their way into a category that didn't include them, and the original category just have to take it? Nice. Will that equally apply to any other groups who wish to bully and take over another group's identity?

What I do find telling is those, even in the Lords, who insist on transwomen being able to participate as women in all areas, don't campaign for transmen to be able to oust their younger brothers in the hereditary stakes. Hmmm I wonder why?
Is there a case of someone trying to do this? I'd back them completely. The H of L may take longer to face reality, they often do.

Could you please explain how my statements which have included 'I would like young people with gender dysphoria to receive adequate medical care" are putting me first.

Doodledog

As I have said ad nauseam, but you either don't read or don't listen, I would prefer to say it as it is. Woman, Man, Transwoman, Transman. No implied difference in status, no differentials in rights. No confusion when it comes to sport health, intimate examinations and so on. No need to force women to give up their identity to please transwomen.

I know what you have said Doodledog but let's face facts that is actually trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. Just as woman now encompasses those born and those who have chosen to become women, so man encompasses those born and those who have chosen to become men. So as I see it you have a choice you can stick with woman, in which case you might be either born or trans, or you can ask for some other form of address you find acceptable. You don't like cis. So choose something else, because if you just stick with woman then you could be either, which doesn't bother people like me but apparently you want some delineation.

I find it very concerning that trans people are out there truly suffering and that people who are not suffering the same way want to put themselves first again...

But if we point out that they are putting themselves first, that means we don't care about them...

When what we are asking for is equality of care, everything the same.

And I expect I am now rude or passive aggressive or playing victim for just not seeing any logic in the arguments that somehow these figures could be wrong or not comprehensive enough...

As if we didn't already know the affects of not being supported with medical conditions or needs from experience. The harm to education, the harm to developing social skills, the harm to mental health, the harm to a child just being allowed to exist as they are and reach their full potential.

Simple example: Glasses.

How many have previously been delayed in getting sight tests? How many struggled to read the board at school? How many children still to this day refuse to wear needed glasses through fear of being bullied? How many are still to this day bullied for wearing glasses? How does that then affect their mental health, education, social skills. How is that compounded by parents who neglect their child's needs in the first place or worse, are cruel enough to also bully them.

As grown up adults we should all know, bullying someone about appearance is ridiculous and that it is the person on the inside that matters, not whether they need to change their appearance to be able to engage in life meaningfully.

Doodledog

As I have said ad nauseam, but you either don't read or don't listen, I would prefer to say it as it is. Woman, Man, Transwoman, Transman. No implied difference in status, no differentials in rights. No confusion when it comes to sport health, intimate examinations and so on. No need to force women to give up their identity to please transwomen.

I agree.

What I do find telling is those, even in the Lords, who insist on transwomen being able to participate as women in all areas, don't campaign for transmen to be able to oust their younger brothers in the hereditary stakes. Hmmm I wonder why?

VioletSky all people benefit from loving support from family and friends, and no bullying from the community at large. I'd hope that anybody struggling with their mental health would receive support and counselling to better understand themselves and come to peace.

GagaJo so now you're presuming to tell me what I know? As for diversionary tactics.......???

Oh sorry did I not respond in the way you wanted. Is that you trying to cancel me? Dont be ridiculous. No one is shutting down debate, we are asking questions, expressing points of view.

Really? So a few women can't even talk respectfully as adults here about a topic we are all interested in? That is what these forums are for.

But no. Cancel culture. Shut it down. Causing arguments and unplesantness.

Sorry but that's hilarious. Do you think we have forgotten no debate. Do you think we havent got thousands of examples going back years of the rallying cry of no debate. And thousands of examples of threats of violence, women being sacked, being sent porn, etc.

I am talking about this thread on this forum. As you clearly know. Yet more diversionary tactics.

GagaJo

As I've said a few times VioletSky, cancel culture. The gender critical shut debate down time and time again.

Oh please!! Who coined and used extensively the phrase 'No debate'? How could you have missed the banners emblazoned with that slogan proudly held aloft by the TRAs?

As I've said a few times VioletSky, cancel culture. The gender critical shut debate down time and time again.

It's a shame how this post turned out because the results of the study are pure common sense

Those suffering gender dysphoria will of course benefit mentally with earlier support from professionals.

Also having supportive family and friends will of course result in much better mental health.

Being harassed or bullied at school will of course cause worse mental health.

Being harassed or bullied in the community as an adult will of course result in worse mental health.

Having unsupportive family and being harassed at school or later in the community will of course result in the worst mental health.

That's logic and common sense and it is a shame that a study had to be conducted to show that evidence and a further shame that study would still be doubted.

Sorry - I missed a page here. I was replying to trisher's post at the bottom of the previous page.

As I have said ad nauseam, but you either don't read or don't listen, I would prefer to say it as it is. Woman, Man, Transwoman, Transman. No implied difference in status, no differentials in rights. No confusion when it comes to sport health, intimate examinations and so on. No need to force women to give up their identity to please transwomen.

Yes it is a shame that I went to a length to explain something clearly and just one word was picked out meaning the rest of what I said with no offense intended was ignored.

So, about giving hormones to teens mentioned in the OP .
Is the statement that teens are being given hormones correct or is GJ’s later statement that it takes till they are 18 (adult) to get the hormone access correct?
I’m still awaiting your evidence of trans being cancelled.

Incidenly none of this matters. The fact that teens are being treated with repect and given the help they need is what matters, and it seems it is happening.

So what term would you like to see used for thoe whose birth gender matches their chosen one Doodledog ? You will probably say "woman" but I'm afraid that doesn't help because transgender people who don't identfy with their birth gender are already using the gender terms man and woman and the words have become inclusive. Personally I'm quite happy to say "cisgender woman" if anyone really needs to know, just as I would use cisgender man if necessary. But as you don't like cis what would you like? Is natal woman OK?

No, you've 'misunderstood' again.

I am happy to use someone's referred pronoun, and think others should do as they please, although I would personally think that anyone who does not respect the wishes of others was being rude.

I do not police others' language, but I think that everyone should treat others with respect, and that includes those who persist in using 'cis' when they have been specifically asked not to do so.

I don't know what is so difficult about that.

So apparently it seems what you are saying is you don't object to using someone's chosen pronoun but you actively approve of others who do.
I apologise if I misunderstood that.
Personally I disapprove of people who police others language in any way.

Eh?

I have said several times that I object to being asked to declare a 'gender pronoun'. You are well aware of this, as you accused me of lying about it not long ago, when I told you that this was often a requirement in workplaces and you hadn't heard of the practise.

I have also made it clear several times, as I am sure that others will attest, that I have no issue with using whatever pronouns other people prefer. In fact I said so a couple of posts above this one.

You are also well aware that I am a woman (adult human female), as I have firmly declared this on several occasions.

Please stop twisting my words. You did not read my post as my saying that I wouldn't use other people's pronouns. Sinking to this sort of disingenuous behaviour is unnecessary.

Ilovecheese

Has anyone said they won't use someone's chosen pronouns?

That's how I read this Ilovecheese Oh bollocks. It is no more so than asking people to use pronouns that don't match the sex of the person using them
Apparently it means. My objections are to being asked to declare my own pronoun, particularly on email, and to being referred to as cis.
I still haven't worked out if this means Doodledog is using a pronoun that doesn't match her/his sex or not.

I do know that most transpeople don't insist on anyone stating a pronoun because they are aware that people at different stages of transition sometimes find this difficult.

.

Part of the Legal definition of Hate Speech is anything that causes another person distress based on gender definition.

Now if someone finds the term ‘ciswoman’ distressing as a reference to their gender and asks for it not to be used. And another person or group of people insist that they will go on using it even though they know it causes distress, is that not Hate Speech?

GagaJo

trisher

It seems to me if you are not prepared to show respect by using someone's chosen pronoun you really can't complain if they use a term like cisgender even though you don't like it.
If you show respect you will be afforded respect.
Ignore others and they will ignore you.

This.

Applies everywhere in life, I find.

I couldn't agree more.

Who has said that they don't use anyone's chosen pronoun?

My objections are to being asked to declare my own pronoun, particularly on email, and to being referred to as cis.

For one thing, I don't have a gender, I have a sex, so the whole idea of a gender pronoun is anathema to me, and for another, as someone with a 'unisex' name, I see no reason to be tagged as female in advance of meeting someone. My sex is irrelevant to my professional competence.

I have explained why I object to 'cis'. I do, however, respect the right of others to use whatever name and pronoun they prefer, and wouldn't dream of deliberately using the wrong one.

I have seen nobody on this thread say that they would do otherwise, and don't understand the bit about ignoring people.