Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

Are you suggesting men should define us by what we wear?

Galaxy

Are you suggesting men should define us by what we wear?

That's an assumption

What I am saying is, I am a woman and want others to know this fact about me and there are incredibly diverse ways to do this that don't put me in any box.

Would you feel comfortable if you were misgendered by someone?

I wouldnt care less violet. Honestly it wouldnt impact me at all.
That's the point we are making violet, it's why living as a woman is nonsense because there is no set way to live as a woman.

And they wouldnt be misgendering me as I reject gender. They would be getting my sex wrong.

Galaxy

Sorry but everyone knew. Women pretended in order to be kind.

Sorry Galaxy but can you explain to me how the women knew and were being kind if not by the very gender norms you say you object to?
It seems to me that the anti-transwomen are so desperate they will try to have both sides of the argument. In doing so they are willing to call people who support transpeople any sort of slur they can lay their hands on. Which proves I suppose how desperate they are.
For the record I abhor gender norms. However I recognise that most of society operates using them. Ideally they would not exist and I think that is one of the reasons many young people are choosing to be non-binary. However this idea that designating people by sex would somehow remove them is just plain ridiculous. Once you start saying these people are women and those people aren't you bring in judgement values, executing those judgements requires either, that every single person carries with them at all times documentary evidence of their sex, or you judge by appearance - by gender norms. You may find one or other of those acceptable. Personally I dislike both. I would far rather have transwomen accepted as women and the norms for women expended than have women stopped and challenged to prove their sex, because all that would result from such challenges would be women conforming to a passable more restrictive gender norm.

Sorry what slur did I use?

Its precisely because sex over rides gender presentation that people generally do know. So it's how I know that for example Julian Clary is a man despite the fact that he frequently presents in what would be considered a feminine way. So the clothes the presentation is irrelevant.

OK, well, some people who have taken pride in their appearance may be upset by being called "sir" as one example.

You can argue that gender is a societal construct created by men but:

The truth is, some men just abused it.

We still need to negotiate how to have relationships with other people, who we are attracted too, what places or apps we use to meet life partners etc

Unless we walk around with our genitals on display and a flashing sign indicating our sexuality then appearance and gender is always going to matter in society and its always going to drive how we express ourselves and how we perceive each other and who we are attracted too.

We can do that AND eradicate sexism.

Galaxy

Its precisely because sex over rides gender presentation that people generally do know. So it's how I know that for example Julian Clary is a man despite the fact that he frequently presents in what would be considered a feminine way. So the clothes the presentation is irrelevant.

This is why pronouns matter

If I gave you a list of people you would generally be able to correctly sex them (sorry that sounds weird) no matter how they presented. So if say David Cameron presented in a dress and makeup you would still be able to identify him as a man.

I am not attracted to peoples gender I am attracted to their sex.

Galaxy

If I gave you a list of people you would generally be able to correctly sex them (sorry that sounds weird) no matter how they presented. So if say David Cameron presented in a dress and makeup you would still be able to identify him as a man.

I mean, have you seen what good makeup can do?

Well, we do have to sex many animals by looking at their bits...

Human beings aren't confortable with that so they present the way they want to be perceived rather than flashing the bits

Galaxy

We think gender is deeply oppressive trisher. I reject gender. I think the phrases living like a woman are from the 1950s and as you mentioned were created by the very academic men you seem to have a problem with.

we think gender is deeply oppressive trisher the inference being that I completely support it.
It's one you have used before this concept that because I recognise gender norms I in some way support them. It's a straw man argument and it's a slur.
That's apart from it's complete irrelevance of course. Introducing sex differentiation will in fact make gender norms more oppressive.

Galaxy

I am not attracted to peoples gender I am attracted to their sex.

Does their appearance matter to you at all? If they have a penis, they are a male and that's enough?

You mentioned that it was a gender term. I was explaining that I reject gender so I am not interested in using terms that reinforce gender. All the terms such as dressing like a woman do this and I was pointing out that I wont be involved in that and will always challenge it. In the way that I would challenge stereotypes about gay men, or people with disabilities for example.

Christ yes Violet

Galaxy

If I gave you a list of people you would generally be able to correctly sex them (sorry that sounds weird) no matter how they presented. So if say David Cameron presented in a dress and makeup you would still be able to identify him as a man.

Galaxy I think you need a night out with the Ladyboys of Bangkok. It's not something I would usually recommend but really? You imagine you can always tell???? www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF4M3eu_gMk

I cant be picky you know.

It's not even a solely human thing, just look at birds, there are lots of normal natural ways that Influence attractiveness, for some it's muscle, or speed or strength, for others it's plumage or beautiful displays, for still others it's smells...

For humans we use all of the above

Galaxy

Christ yes Violet

Phew!

I would like to know Galaxy how in your gender free world where transwomen have to be seperated from natal women and transmen fom natal men you are going to achieve that? Or is it just a small matter that will be left to the authorities? Because that terrifies me.

trisher

Rosie51

trisher it is an absolute falsehood to say that the word woman has always included men, and you make yourself look foolish or dishonest when you assert this. Why has the dictionary definition been "adult human female" since dictionaries have been published? There is a way back from the highjacking of our term by men. We refuse to concede our word without a fight.

Probably because dictionary definitions are written mostly by white academic men who live restricted lives and who are trying to make everything definable. Unfortunately real life isn't. So amongst those living as women there have always been people who were identfied as male at birth and amongst those living as men there have always been some designated female at birth. No one bothered to examine these people to make sure they were "adult females" or indeed "adult males" they passed as women and men, which is exactly why this is a gender term and nothing to do with sex.
I don't think anyone actually lives in a dictionary.

So now you object to dictionaries? You are aware that if words can mean anything any individual decides then nothing will have any discernible meaning? You don't agree with words having a defined meaning and yet you want to define woman according to your ideology? Who coined the term transwoman? My suspicion is a man, a male, and very likely a white male. Are you agreeing that woman hasn't always meant males and females? That at least is progress.
I am pleased to see you at least use the words identified as male at birth since that is correct but you switch to designated for the female. Better than 'assigned' but identified or observed are more accurate.

I think men can present in anyway they like violet. Some will attract me sone wont. I am not sure who I am attracted to really proves anything. I spent part of my younger years being attracted to women again not sure what this proves.

Sex segregation terrifies you? That must be really difficult. Are you saying you wouldnt trust those who run refuges to provide women only services.

VioletSky

It's not even a solely human thing, just look at birds, there are lots of normal natural ways that Influence attractiveness, for some it's muscle, or speed or strength, for others it's plumage or beautiful displays, for still others it's smells...

For humans we use all of the above

I'm not sure I get the relevance of this but those attributes and displays you mention are in order to get a mate of the opposite sex for procreation. You don't get peacocks displaying to other peacocks with the expectation of nesting together.