Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

Lathyrus I'm just not engaging in arguments and personal comments thanks

Is it still the done thing for a woman patient to request a woman chaperone in any hands-on, unclothed, treatment or examination if she feels she needs one?

VioletSky

Lathyrus I'm just not engaging in arguments and personal comments thanks

Nothing personal.

Only commenting on the things you’ve posted.

Lathyrus

So is it incidents of this kind shouldn’t be investigated or incidents of this kind shouldn’t be investigated because the member of staff was thought to be trans.

I can’t see why anyone would think this shouldn’t be nvestigated unless they had some other agenda.

Well yes, investigate, why not?

But I'd turn your last comment on its head - I can't think anyone would think it has to be made such a fuss of, unless thaty had a very specific agenda?

I think Fleur that if I was having an intimate assessment and somebody walked randomly into the room, hung about for a short time and then left without any indication of why they should be there, I’d be asking questions about who they were and why they were there.

It would seem very odd to me.

We have women in Iran being murdered for daring to show their hair and the argument is religious or cultural reasons may prevent someone getting treatment.

Not acceptable

Hospitals are there to save our lives or prevent long term debilitating or mutilating injury and if the right gender staff aren't available it's not OK to argue that's the hospitals fault.

If a woman's life is in danger the argument should be that that woman should get the treatment from the first qualified person available.

If we have 2 ambulances, one with male staff and one with female and the operator has to swap them between incidents meaning both must travel 40 miles instead of 5, then that could be two lives lost.

I am respectful of religion and cultural things but outdated practices like that nd others aren't acceptable and are harming women.

No that is not respectful and “outdated practices” is nothing more than negative language based on your own cultural Norns and value judgements.

Violence against women in Iran has nothing to do female concepts of privacy and the right to say what will happen to their own bodies.

I'm not respectful of any idea that harms women no.

Yet again, a woman asks for something and her motives, her background, even whether she is telling the truth are questioned. It's depressing.

We don't know the facts of this case (and I hope the investigation happens quickly) but the bare bones of what happened seem to be that a patient asked a private hospital to ensure that she would be treated in a female environment, or at least that the staff treating her would be female. She paid her money on that basis, so a contract was in place, yet her wishes were disrespected.

The case was picked up by the media, and the response is to jump to the conclusion that the woman was wrong to ask in the first place, that she must be prejudiced at best and racist at worst (??) that she may well be lying about her motives (implying that the general public has a right to question her motives) and the sympathy goes straight to the male-bodied nurse who decided to ignore the wishes that the patient had requested and paid for.

The point, which stands despite the misogynist attempts to discredit the woman and make assumptions about her motives, is that she asked for something that the hospital agreed to (and either took or was prepared to take her money for providing), but her wishes were over-ruled. The hospital clearly didn't consider her wishes unreasonable - if they had they needn't have agreed to them.

I mean- I don't get it. I have never had any doubt about my sexuality, even if I grew up with boys and was a bit of a tom boy. But female I am, through and through.
Fleurpepper, your sexuality and the games you played as a child are unconnected. As is the fact that you had male relatives or friends. You are female through and through because you have female gametes. If you didn't, you would be male. There is no in-between.

As to whether someone would 'get away with' posing as a member of the opposite sex if they looked more 'natural' in the role - well yes, they probably would. But that is the point! Transwomen are not women. They are transwomen. The vast majority do not pose a threat to women (or men for that matter). But unless you believe that women should have no right to decide for themselves who touches them and no right to refuse to allow men to touch them intimately that differentiation is fundamental. Your niece can go about her lawful business as she pleases, but she is not a woman, as she was born with male gametes. She can pursue the vast majority of professions, but care needs to be taken when it comes to those few that involve intimate contact with women when they are vulnerable. Not all women will be concerned about contact with male-bodied people, which is fine, but those who are should have their wishes respected. Surely someone who finds so-called 'gender' norms important enough to want to change their whole life because of how they 'feel' will understand that so do many women, and that some of those women will not want intimate contact with male-bodied people they don't know? And that their reasons for this are not for others to question. They feel as they do, and that should be enough.

Oh, and can we please stop generalisations about lesbians? Lesbianism is about sexuality, and as such lesbians are as different from one another as straight people, gay men or any other group. It really doesn't matter if any poster is gay, straight, bi or anything else - we can all use speak for ourselves when it comes to sexuality. Trying to play trump cards is pointless.

And uncovering their hair is women asserting the right to say what happens to their own bodies.

Religion or culture should not trump women's rights or needs.

Especially if a woman wants to survive and anyone around her states she can't receive treatment because of religion or will suffer in any way if she does.

I've lived in a refuge.

There was a large proportion of women there who had been disowned by family for not following practice

They matter too and I won't tell women they should risk their own lives for outdated practice

Especially when there are places in all religions where this is now not enforced but people still worship and are welcomed

And the law should back me up on this because FGM is illegal in this country and so is forced marriage.

I'm not going to pick and choose religious or cultural practice to support my argument when it is something I don't agree with and women are harmed by it.

That's gross

Fleurpepper

Mollygo
but honestly, she wouldn't have been asked.
Honestly is a strange word to use for deceit.

But honestly your niece would have known. That says you, and she think it’s OK to choose which dishonesty is OK and which isn’t.
Not really much more to say about that.
Oh dear...

it would have never entered her mind- she does not know she is a man, because she has chosen to be a woman, and has been for 15 years, very happily and succesfully. She would have never seen it as deceit, at all- and neither would anyone at the hsopital. And no-one would have ever known.

I never suggested your niece was a man Are you saying your niece doesn’t know what a male is ? However your niece has lived or is portrayed, change of sex is impossible.
If your niece feels it is right to go where a female has been requested, it’s dishonesty, whichever way you dress it up.

Honor based abuse

Is abuse

Abuse is abuse

I'm never ever going to be OK with abuse and if someone may not get treatment because of any religious or cultural norm they have been brainwashed to follow or are too frightened by family and peers not to follow even if that causes them harm that is abuse.

A neighbour refused to be treated by female staff when he was in hospital and was extremely rude to all the staff. His condition took much longer to improve because of his refusing treatment.

VS. Nobody, but nobody is arguing that FGM is ok. Hair covering is not ok of it is enforced, but I know women who want to do it and wouldn't presume to tell them that I know their motives better than they do.

Susie Had the hospital agreed before he went in that no women would treat him?

If not, he was a fool to himself. But if, as appears to be true in the case we are (indirectly) discussing, they had taken his money on the understanding that they would provide him with male staff, then he would have a right to complain.

''I never suggested your niece was a man Are you saying your niece doesn’t know what a male is ? However your niece has lived or is portrayed, change of sex is impossible. ''

you are suggesting exactly that. She was born a male, changed aged 17, and has been living it since. She will tell you that is is a woman, and is living it every day. And no-one would ever know. She would not see it as deceipt, at all. Honestly.

Erm...

If women want to cover their hair or refuse treatment from someone that is their choice.

Would it be a choice they made without growing up in a strict family? Possibly not.

When any religious or cultural practise puts a woman at risk of harm I'm not OK with it.

Honor based abuse is a serious issue and I'm not changing my definition of abuse to be inclusive to religion.

Religion needs to change to empower and protect women's rights too or its just a rather flimsy excuse to abuse women.

I agree Molly. I have never asked to be treated by females only but if I did, and was told that would be the case, it would be wrong for a trans nurse or doctor to be giving me treatment.

It wouldn't matter if the nurse or doctor concerned didn't look trans and I would have no way of knowing.

My point, again- is that in her case it does not show- no-one would ever know. In the case of my other trans friend- who also had full reversal at a later stage- it does show. Size, voice, hands- even though she has a full had of natural long hair and does not wear heavy make-up.

Fleurpepper

''I never suggested your niece was a man Are you saying your niece doesn’t know what a male is ? However your niece has lived or is portrayed, change of sex is impossible. ''

you are suggesting exactly that. She was born a male, changed aged 17, and has been living it since. She will tell you that is is a woman, and is living it every day. And no-one would ever know. She would not see it as deceipt, at all. Honestly.

No one has the right to define what a woman is to your neice.

Women do not have the right to define what a woman is to each other either

Its all backwards thinking and very sexist

VioletSky

I'm not respectful of any idea that harms women no.

A woman being able to say I don’t want medical treatment would be her choice.

You advocate treatment regardless of her choice.

You argue that women should be given enforced medical treatment based on someone else’s belief of what is right for their bodies.

🙄

I know what your point is Fleurpepper but the point I and others are making is it wouldn't matter if anyone would know. If a specific request is made and the one making the request is told it will be upheld, then it should be.

It is biology that defines what a woman is, not other women.

Just as an aside Fleur, if the patient had requested a vegan diet and the chef used chicken stock for her soup, would you say it didn’t matter because nobody would ever know?

It’s a bit worrying this idea that things are ok as long as nobody finds out.

Who are you to decide? Biology is just one of many determinants. And that is the whole point.

I forgot about another trans friend. Who taught Art at the High School here. Married for many years, 2 daughters. Divorced in her mid 50s, and had full reversal during the Summer School holidays.

The School Head and Trustees wrote to all parents, explaining that Mr. xyz would return at hte beginning og the school year and would have changed appearance and would, from then on, be called Mrs xyz. They expected an uproar from some parents, and bullying and discipline issues for the kids- but it all went very well, and her decision was fully respected. Wonderful.

Do you think parents should have had the right to request that she did not teach their children, lest it would have somehow rubbed onto them with the paint?

Lathyrus

Just as an aside Fleur, if the patient had requested a vegan diet and the chef used chicken stock for her soup, would you say it didn’t matter because nobody would ever know?

It’s a bit worrying this idea that things are ok as long as nobody finds out.

No, it wouldn't, a very different kettle of fish (!).

We actually had one of the students on my course who came to stay with us for 2 years, as this is exactly what her landlady did- worse, intentionally cooking her vegetarian food with lard.