Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

there are ways of doing that without ostracising people, I have found

No one has taken over anything. Transwomen are women. They present as women. They are therefore subjected to the same oppressions as women
What a pile of rubbish!
TIM or TW can only call themselves women because the word was corrupted to facilitate male use of the word.
The fact is that transwomen or TIM or TW are male. Some chose and would like to live unnoticed and peacefully as ‘women’, like the niece referred to by FP. They don’t need or want transactivists shouting for them.
Unfortunately the raucous demonstrations by both TW and the TA who feel TIM are entitled to female rights is beginning to make that impossible.
The oppression of TW you complain about was and is being caused by males.
The oppression of females was and is also caused by males.

And yet another diversionary tactic🥱

I do wish I had not been eating while reading your last comment*Fleurpepper*.

Lathyrus

And yet another diversionary tactic🥱

That was to Glorianny in case there’s any doubt.

I came in late. I’ve been to the theatre😬

The whole present as women and live as women is like something out of the Victorian ages. It's so regressive and based utterly in sterotypes.

JaneJudge

there are ways of doing that without ostracising people, I have found

perhaps also of doing it without having to cry "misogyny" or accuse people of having breakdowns.
After all you really know nothing about me.

Galaxy

The whole present as women and live as women is like something out of the Victorian ages. It's so regressive and based utterly in sterotypes.

It is how society operates Galaxy. You may not like it. You might wish things were different. I've certainly done my bit to blur the edges of those roles. But it still operates. It's why young women are dismissed easily when pregnant. It's why there is a gender pay gap that is getting bigger. If I could wave a magic wand and wipe it all away I would. Meanwhile I'll live with it. And one of the things I like about trans and non binary people is that sometimes I have to ask which pronoun they prefer. Which is going some way towards eliminating the stereotypes you dislike.

You live with it I fight against it. Lots of people do tolerate stereotypes about sex about race about disability, others dont.

Those ideas enforce sterotypes thankfully much of the guidance to schools now challenges those stereotypes. Certainly in my workplace the trainjng has changed so thankfully they dont like clothes, toys, etc to someones sex.

Dont link that should say

Glorianny

JaneJudge

there are ways of doing that without ostracising people, I have found

perhaps also of doing it without having to cry "misogyny" or accuse people of having breakdowns.
After all you really know nothing about me.

It was misogyny and it is part of the problem. You are unwilling to accept it but it isn't only me who has problems with certain words being used to address women. Hysterical and shrill are in that group too. Language can be a powerful tool.

Nor in mine, Galaxy.
Strangely enough, even when I first started teaching, and still now, some boys prefer the fairy tale costumes or the donated bridesmaids dresses to the pirate outfit or camouflage clothes, no one pounced or pounces on them with suggestions that they are not male, or are homosexual.
If boys are in the ‘home corner’ and girls outside with big construction toys, so what?
Now they can choose school uniform from skirt or trousers with no reference to sex.
There is no pressure in school to be either
and our RSE curriculum has just been praised by OFSTED.
It is what goes on outside school and is then brought into school that causes problems.

Language is very powerful which is why I am so resistant to the way it is being used to manipulate thinking.

Words describe concepts. If you take away a word the concept dies with it. Look what’s happening to woman, mother, female, she, her, girl, daughter, niece, and more. When the concept of what it means to be female has gone, along with the limited protections that have been fought for, what will replace it? We’ve already seen ‘bleeders’, people who menstruate, chest feeders, people with vaginas and so on. That can be explained away as being ‘inclusive’ of the tiny minority of transpeople who don’t understand that however often they say the magic words, and however much Kool Aid they have drunk, they remain in the sex they are born, but it has chilling connotations of dehumanisation and separatism, as well as reducing the people who used to be women to the status of breeding stock.

No women’s rights, spaces, wards, prisons or anywhere for women at all, as we don’t exist as a sex, but have become a ‘gender choice’ which includes people who don’t menstruate, have babies or go through menopause. People who are physically bigger and stronger (on the whole). Who have different and more aggressive hormones, and who already have a lot more political and administrative power than we do. What will happen to ‘women’s rights’ then?

Galaxy

Those ideas enforce sterotypes thankfully much of the guidance to schools now challenges those stereotypes. Certainly in my workplace the trainjng has changed so thankfully they dont like clothes, toys, etc to someones sex.

What ideas Galaxy? Asking a person who is dressed in trousers and a shirt with braces, with hair cut short what pronoun she prefers? It might be "she" because she's a butch lesbian, it might be "they" because she's non-binary or it could be "he" because he's trans. It might even be "she" because she just 'likes what are termed "boy's clothes" How can that perpetuate a stereotype? It's diversity in action!
As for disabilities some are hidden and some prefer not to use the term disabled-I respect that as well. There are even those who use the term "Crips"
Would it be better if I just insisted on using language these people don't like? Is that fighting stereotypes?

Because you are talking about dress like a woman and act like a woman, I didnt mention pronouns I dont think. Women and men can dress however they like it has no impact on their sex.

I dont know where we stand in terms of pronouns now with regard to children and young people following the concerns in the cass report about social transition and the new NHS guidelines.

Glorianny
Asking a person who is dressed in trousers and a shirt with braces, with hair cut short what pronoun she prefers? It might be "she" because she's a butch lesbian, it might be "they" because she's non-binary or it could be "he" because he's trans. It might even be "she" because she just 'likes what are termed "boy's clothes"

Boys clothes? Butch Lesbian?
You are stereotyping again. Tut, tut tut!

What a strange world you live in. I don’t ask anyone which pronoun they prefer, because if I’m talking to them I use “you”.

People who are physically disabled can call themselves however they want. I wouldn't expect the same privilege to use language that could be seen as derogatory or offensive.

Galaxy

Because you are talking about dress like a woman and act like a woman, I didnt mention pronouns I dont think. Women and men can dress however they like it has no impact on their sex.

Even if someone has been through the whole transition process- hormones and full surgical reversal, looks like a woman, behaves like a woman (whatever that means!) have a woman voice and features, is married to a normal man?

My niece has done all that, changed her name, is called Mrs xyz, and you would never ever guess she was born a man. Gametes- you will say. But no penis, no gonads, a vagina, breasts, lovely legs and hands. Who has the right to decide that she can't call herself a female name, work and live as a female, and be a wonderful carer, to both men and women. And certainly not a threat to anyone!

Nobody is suggesting that, FP. As has been explained several times. She can call herself the Duchess of Devonshire if that's what she wants to do, but as with the trans debate, saying something doesn't make it true.

Your niece is lucky that she has a feminine appearance, though. What if she looked like a man with a man's hands shoulders and legs, a deep voice and an adam's apple? Would you be using the same argument then?

I don't see where anyone has said your niece doesn't have the right to any of those things Fleur.

Mollygo

Glorianny
Asking a person who is dressed in trousers and a shirt with braces, with hair cut short what pronoun she prefers? It might be "she" because she's a butch lesbian, it might be "they" because she's non-binary or it could be "he" because he's trans. It might even be "she" because she just 'likes what are termed "boy's clothes"

Boys clothes? Butch Lesbian?
You are stereotyping again. Tut, tut tut!

What a strange world you live in. I don’t ask anyone which pronoun they prefer, because if I’m talking to them I use “you”.

It may be a strange world Mollygo but it's a world where no one restricts what anyone wears or what anyone chooses to call themselves. I love it. Yes some of the people are not the sort you might find living in suburbia, but they are lovely accepting people who truly believe in equality and act upon that belief. As far as using the words I use I can only explain things to you in words you might understand, If in doing so I have to use the language of stereo typing it's the language at fault not the idea.
The same applies to Galaxy.

There is absolutely nothing in the gender critical agenda that will lead to abandoning stereotypes, only things that would subject those who are a little different to intrusive inspections. As this butch lesbian relates www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/01/19/public-toilets-trans-bathroom-butch-lesbian-harassed-gender-critical-feminists/

So when you are asked to introduce the person sitting next to you and given a few minutes to find out about them you would use "you"? Very odd grammar

Doodledog

Nobody is suggesting that, FP. As has been explained several times. She can call herself the Duchess of Devonshire if that's what she wants to do, but as with the trans debate, saying something doesn't make it true.

Your niece is lucky that she has a feminine appearance, though. What if she looked like a man with a man's hands shoulders and legs, a deep voice and an adam's apple? Would you be using the same argument then?

If you have read my previous posts, I have 2 other friends, who transitioned when older, where it is the case. Anyone who meets them would guess, quite quickly.

And yes, I would use the same argument. Why should they be more discriminated against than my niece, just because they are not so femine and pretty. They are as nice, as caring, as good at their job, and NO threat to anyone.

THAT is my point. And the reason I mentionned mixed race children. Totally aware this is not the same. But he same point applies- children (and adults) are only considered 'mixed race' when it shows. No-one even thinks about it if it does not. My ACs and GCs are massively mixed race, from all corners of the world and skin colour- but they were born, by chance, pale with blue eyes- so they will never ever suffer discrimination. They could have been born darker, with frizzy hair and a flat nose and larger lips- and the story could have been very different.

I didn't say that they should be discriminated against. Not at all. It's just that your previous post was suggesting that because your niece is feminine-looking she is a woman. In fact, it makes no difference if people 'pass' or not (as I have said in previous posts, but clearly neither of us can remember everything). The fact remains that transwomen are not women, although they should be allowed to live in peace and have exactly the same (sex-based) rights as everyone else.