Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

Galaxy

I think pretending that we cant generally tell what sex people are is part of the problem.

What does that mean? Some Lesbians are very much female but look a bit, or a lot 'butch' as said above. Can they be nurses? Can they care for someone who states 'female only'.

My two friends can fairly easily be guessed as trans, but they are not butch, at all and have their own long hair- but proportions of hands and voice are the issue.

And my niece, well I'd challenge anyone, just anyone, to know. she has had full reversal, is very pretty and feminime, lovely voice, no Adam's apple, slim but shapely. So, would she be suitable to nurse- and to nurse someone who says 'female' only- as the fact she is trans does not show, and as she is called Mrs XYZ, as she is married to man? It is just not so simple.

Which others?

There are serious discussions to be had about gender politics, but stories such as this one discredit the genuine arguments.

Well my belief is

You cannot genuinely engage in any kind of discussion without being open minded to being wrong.

Otherwise you are just making statements into the void

Guess that's why I'm an agnostic

Sorry fleur but lesbians are women I find it quite homophobic to suggest otherwise. Lesbians are women and transwomen are men.
I am afraid that one of the reasons I am gender critical is that these conversations generally involve homophobia specifically aimed at lesbians.

That misses the point so spectacularly it was a full 180

Glad you're keeping with the open mind there VS

I’ve just read all about this online as this thread is quite heated and I wanted to know what it was all about. Why was this woman asked about gender, pronouns etc on her initial forms? Is this the norm now for hospital treatment?
If this lady was a victim of an assault then surely compassion could have been shown. It all sounds so strange and extreme to me. Is this the reality of hospital admissions nowadays.

If butch lesbians and masculine appearing women are being bullied as trans it stands to reason you cannot always tell by looking

And you cannot

'Masculine appearing women' is just another stereotype that all this relies on. Clothes, make up, haircut etc have absolutely nothing to do with what sex you are. Those are expectations of society and ones which we were until relatively recently doing quite a good job of dismantling.

Galaxy

'Masculine appearing women' is just another stereotype that all this relies on. Clothes, make up, haircut etc have absolutely nothing to do with what sex you are. Those are expectations of society and ones which we were until relatively recently doing quite a good job of dismantling.

Exactly why they are being bullied as trans by GC feminists

It's sexism

growstuff

Which others?

There are serious discussions to be had about gender politics, but stories such as this one discredit the genuine arguments.

For now, I think that this is true, as we don't know the full facts.

All the same, and leaving the details of this particular case aside, the principle hinges on whether a trans-identifying nurse can count as female when male-bodied, and whether it is ok to disrespect a female patient's request not to be treated by male staff after it was agreed that this would not happen.

If not, do we, as women, have a word that defines us any more? Is there anywhere we can go that men cannot follow us, or do we just have to step aside and let men be subsumed into our sex class and let them access all areas (geographical, social and physical) whether we like it or not, and whether or not we have been told that we are in an all-female environment? If so, why? Just because some men want to?

Questions also need to be asked about what constitutes a transwoman, so that patients who care about the sex of those who treat them can give informed consent. Is it any man in a dress, is it someone who has medically transitioned, someone who is 'feeling like a girl' that day, or what? If the answer is 'someone who lives as a woman', what does that mean in practice?

Without a definition of terms, it is very difficult to discuss sensitive issues like this one, as people talk at cross-purposes, yet the trans lobby always refuse to answer questions about definitions. I wonder if those two things are related.

You won't dismantle them entirely because men and women perpetuate them

Bit having gender norms is actually seperate to using them to discriminate don't you think?

Most of the gender critical women I know are lesbians VS so they tend not to harass other lesbians. Were you thinking of someone specific?

Galaxy

'Masculine appearing women' is just another stereotype that all this relies on. Clothes, make up, haircut etc have absolutely nothing to do with what sex you are. Those are expectations of society and ones which we were until relatively recently doing quite a good job of dismantling.

Cross posted with this and your other post about homophobia. I agree on both counts. The whole idea that being a woman is about wearing certain clothes, or living in a particular (but always undefined) way is ludicrous. As is the idea that a lesbian will want to have sex with a man just because he is wearing a dress. Sexism, homophobia and misogyny all bundled together.

VioletSky

You cannot genuinely engage in any kind of discussion without being open minded to being wrong.

Really VS?

Every time you equate the word transwoman with being female (couching it in the corrupted terms ‘woman’ or ‘women’) you are wrong, but you keep doing it. That’s not open mindedness.

He knew he was male whatever he ‘looked like’.
She had asked for females.
Ergo he was wrong to go in there.

VS 21:22

It's sexism

Glad you think so V S
Sexism
sexism
/ˈsɛksɪz(ə)m/
noun
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against females, on the basis of sex.

Your 'niece' Fleurpepper is male, regardless of appearance.
If stereotypes were not so well reinforced in most people's minds it would be perfectly fine for people such as your 'niece' to acknowledge being male with no fear.
Unfortunately, current trans ideology is reinforcing those stereotypes even more strongly.

Mollygo

VioletSky

You cannot genuinely engage in any kind of discussion without being open minded to being wrong.

Really VS?

Every time you equate the word transwoman with being female (couching it in the corrupted terms ‘woman’ or ‘women’) you are wrong, but you keep doing it. That’s not open mindedness.

He knew he was male whatever he ‘looked like’.
She had asked for females.
Ergo he was wrong to go in there.

No thank you

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Bloody hell.

For ALL lesbians, being a lesbian means being sexually attracted to other women. “Other women” excludes TIMs, regardless of whether or not they have retained their male genitalia.
And I agree that TIFs are usually ignored in these discussions. That’s because they are women, even if fully transitioned.

Crikey its years since I have heard the lesbians with a chip on their shoulder thing. Takes me back. Not to a very nice place but there you go.

Most people in my circles are happy with the T in LGBTQ

Especially the 3 million strong group of intersectional feminists I belong to

Younger people just don't bother with the platforms the GC use

It's just the truth

Also if you look at a platform like twitter, people choose who to follow.

So when I go on twitter I'm not going to see a bunch of GC posts.

So you can't objectively say "most people agree with xyz" when most people aren't going to see it in the first place

So it all very much depends on the circles you choose

VioletSky

Most people in my circles are happy with the T in LGBTQ

Especially the 3 million strong group of intersectional feminists I belong to

Younger people just don't bother with the platforms the GC use

It's just the truth

No it’s not truth. It’s your experience within the circles that you know.

Let’s just say it’s your truth.