Record Numbers Not Working Due To Ill Health

No NorthFace, tax avoidance is a means of saving tax which is allowed by the law, such as putting money into ISAs.

Dinahmo

Witzend

Germanshepherdsmum

Well at least I don’t read the tabloids.

Neither do I, and I’m not some rabid right winger, either - far from it. Of course those with genuine physical or mental health problems are not the issue. However I have known perfectly healthy, capable young people who have simply chosen to live off the taxpayer, and who have been allowed to do so for years.
Excuses included, ‘I’m not participating in the capitalist system’ - while entirely happy to live off the taxes of those who do.

How does this happen? Most people one reads about have a very difficult time to get benefits. witness the film I, Daniel Blake - based I believe, on true cases.

I'd love to know too. I had to start claiming housing benefit last year when I was no longer well enough to top up my pension with self-employed work. I had to submit all sorts of details about my income, bank account and personal details. I know they cross-referenced some of it because I made a small mistake (I was claiming for less than I was entitled) and the council contacted me for clarification and I had to send all my paperwork again.

No. Putting money into an ISA isn’t tax avoidance because Parliament introduced them as a way to encouraging savings.

Tax avoidance is bending the rules of the tax system to try to gain a tax advantage that Parliament never intended. It involves operating within the letter, but not the spirit, of the law.

Rosalyn69

I feel for the genuine long term sick but sadly I don’t believe they are all genuine. And most of them know exactly how to work the system to get maximum help.

I can't blame anybody for being savvy enough to claim the maximum help for which they're eligible. Unfortunately, for most people even maximum help isn't very much.

Doodledog

Is it avoidance or evasion that is illegal? Neither is ethical, IMO. Anyway, I'm sure what everyone means is when people do not pay the tax they owe to the system.

Having an ISA or whatever is not remotely the same thing.

Tax evasion is illegal. Avoidance is doing whatever is allowed in order to reduce your tax liability - such as investing in ISAs

Witzend

Germanshepherdsmum

Well at least I don’t read the tabloids.

Neither do I, and I’m not some rabid right winger, either - far from it. Of course those with genuine physical or mental health problems are not the issue. However I have known perfectly healthy, capable young people who have simply chosen to live off the taxpayer, and who have been allowed to do so for years.
Excuses included, ‘I’m not participating in the capitalist system’ - while entirely happy to live off the taxes of those who do.

How does this happen? Most people one reads about have a very difficult time to get benefits. witness the film I, Daniel Blake - based I believe, on true cases.

Is it avoidance or evasion that is illegal? Neither is ethical, IMO. Anyway, I'm sure what everyone means is when people do not pay the tax they owe to the system.

Having an ISA or whatever is not remotely the same thing.

GagaJo

Luckygirl3

they exist and are living off the rest of us with no qualms.

As are the filthy rich tax avoiders - let's start with them. Putting a stop to that would save the country a great deal more than going after the small number of benefit fraudsters.

There are in my experience far far more people struggling in poverty because they do not claim what is their due - through ignorance of entitlement, inability to fill in the forms, pride etc.

100% with you there. The tax avoiders cost us far more than little people on benefits. Not to mention the billions chucked away to friends and family of government ministers during utility sell offs and during COVID.

Agreed.

My son who is ex army, and medically trained, asesses sickness claims in a northern city. When claimants visit to discuss he has a panic button under the desk because it can get nasty very quickly if he disputes their claim that they are unfit. Some really do know how to work the system.
I worry about his mental health too and don't think he will put up with the job much longer.

In the spring of the year in which covid began in the UK I read an article in the Guardian containing interviews with people who were not recovering. I'm not even sure whether it was called long covid then. One of the interviewees was a young doctor who, prior to covid, had run 5 km 3 times per week and, being an hospital doctor was on his and moving about most of the day. After being ill with covid he had difficulty walking upstairs.

After reading that I posted on GN saying that perhaps GNers could warn their children and/or grandchildren and got criticized by most of those who read the thread for giving advice (or words to that effect)

Rosalyn69

I feel for the genuine long term sick but sadly I don’t believe they are all genuine. And most of them know exactly how to work the system to get maximum help.

Where is your evidence for most of them know exactly how to work the system? I really mean this question - where is your information from?

Anyone working in Social Work, GP's, MP's help surgeries and MH workers will tell you this is far from the case.

It’s tax evasion which is illegal. Everyone is entitled to arrange their tax affairs to best advantage, within the law.

Sueki44

Not everyone who is not working is on benefits.

Exactly! And frankly, if they are not claiming benefits ( as in my case) then it really is not the government's business what I am doing or how I am financing my day to day expenses. How many on here have cut down their working hours to provide free childcare for their grandchildren? Or have cut their hours to provide care for elderly parents?

Germanshepherdsmum

Tax avoidance is legal. How is it connected to people not claiming benefits they are entitled to? Will stopping all tax avoidance suddenly make everyone claim what they are entitled to?

Tax avoidance is legal - that seems a bizarre statement to me, but, anyway, surely if that is true, then tax avoidance is immoral?

Nicenanny3

10:00Wyllow3

You can get £109.40 a week Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) for up to 28 weeks.

You can get SSP from the fourth day you’re off sick.

If you’re eligible, you’ll be paid SSP for all the days you’re off sick that you normally would have worked, except for the first 3.

Not all the truth.

only if you are employed on a proper work contract not nil hours contract - as the employer pays it do you you get the £109.40.

Yes, you get it for 4 weeks, and after that are on £83 pounds plus as I stated.

If you are going to look things up, then give the full picture.

In the context of the O/P, where we are discussing long term or permanent sickness, those 4 weeks with the extra £30 isa are neither here nor there.

I am not worried in the slightest about people living off me but there is something about supporting people into work because working generally provides much better outcomes for people, in terms of mental health, 'happiness' and so on.
I have a close friend with complex mental health issues, because of the type of work she does and the support in place, she has been able to retain her job despite at times being very ill. That has been of immense value to her, not just financially.

Tax avoidance is legal. How is it connected to people not claiming benefits they are entitled to? Will stopping all tax avoidance suddenly make everyone claim what they are entitled to?

Luckygirl3

*they exist and are living off the rest of us with no qualms.*

As are the filthy rich tax avoiders - let's start with them. Putting a stop to that would save the country a great deal more than going after the small number of benefit fraudsters.

There are in my experience far far more people struggling in poverty because they do not claim what is their due - through ignorance of entitlement, inability to fill in the forms, pride etc.

100% with you there. The tax avoiders cost us far more than little people on benefits. Not to mention the billions chucked away to friends and family of government ministers during utility sell offs and during COVID.

I feel for the genuine long term sick but sadly I don’t believe they are all genuine. And most of them know exactly how to work the system to get maximum help.

Well said Luckygirl3!

they exist and are living off the rest of us with no qualms.

As are the filthy rich tax avoiders - let's start with them. Putting a stop to that would save the country a great deal more than going after the small number of benefit fraudsters.

There are in my experience far far more people struggling in poverty because they do not claim what is their due - through ignorance of entitlement, inability to fill in the forms, pride etc.

Indeed Doodledog - some are very skilled at this. I encountered that sort of thing in the public sector - stress-related illness (sometimes self-induced because they let their work build up). If someone can’t cope with the stress which is part of the job they should look elsewhere.
As regards those who play the benefits system - many will have seen tv programmes or read newspaper articles about people who are, for instance, seen limping along with a stick and then nipping around the golf course. It happens. Backache, for instance, is notoriously difficult to disprove. Such people may be in the minority but they exist and are living off the rest of us with no qualms.

A very interesting discussion, very relevant to this conversation, has just finished on Jeremy Vine:
BBC Radio 2, 12 to 12:35 pm.
Listen/catch up on BBC Sounds.

Not everyone who is not working is on benefits.

Glorianny

So as a new development instead of the deserving and undeserving poor, we now have the deserving and the undeserving sick. It is sickening !!! (sorry)

It is indeed sickening.

Clearly any benefits system needs to have criteria to be meaningful. And our system has exactly that - sometimes so stringent that people are unable to work out the application process and finish up using food banks.

The idea that there are swathes of people claiming benefits illegally is simply not the case and the government statistics bear that out. Just because a few do, does not mean that those with genuine claims should be denigrated. In our society there are a few murderers - we do not therefore conclude that there are millions of them.

Government needs to grasp the nettle of regenerating declining areas where people are trapped in a cycle of poverty.... financial poverty, but also aspirational poverty where people just give up and pass that mindset onto their children.