Are pharmacists sufficiently trained?

Good news. Hope the toe heals soon and that it hasn’t spoiled your holiday too much.

Better news Whitewavemark2 I hope it heals quickly, enjoy today and safe journey home. Toe saga has a happy ending 🙂

Wishing your toe a speedy recovery Whitewavemark2

😄😄 honestly so embarrassing!! But thank you all. And May your toes continue to be healthy.

Whitewavemark2

And finally - I have duly eaten my words in the op and have mentally apologised to the pharmacist.

😁

Hope it soon gets better.
Enjoy the rest of your holiday!

I'm in the shade in the garden and about to read a book after a carch--up on GN
(I was busy gardening this morning, it's too warm for strenuous efforts here now .)

Whitewavemark2

And finally - I have duly eaten my words in the op and have mentally apologised to the pharmacist.

So does this mean that pharmacist’s are more qualified than the medics? 🤦🏼‍♀️ life can be very complicated.
💐

Our local pharmacist told my daughter that she needed antibiotics for an infected finger. Four days later, 2 urgent care and 1 A&E visit plus (finally) a GP visit she got them. Her finger was by now going black. I was hoping that this news would mean that in the future she wouldn’t have suffered severe pain and a week off work. It seems not.

PamelaJ1

Whitewavemark2

And finally - I have duly eaten my words in the op and have mentally apologised to the pharmacist.

So does this mean that pharmacist’s are more qualified than the medics? 🤦🏼‍♀️ life can be very complicated.
💐

No, just differently qualified.

When I found out my regular hospital review, conducted by phone since Covid, was with a pharmacist and not with the Consultant or even a junior doctor, I asked why and the Consultant assured me the pharmacists were valued members of his team and probably knew more about the effects of medication on the body than he does.

Well done the pharmacist 👏👏 and pleased to hear you are now all set up
Keep an eye on it and hopefully it will continue to improve

Lying in a hospital bed one day the hospital pharmacy were checking everyone's medications - as they do.

When she checked mine - after reading my notes - she told me that she thought my long-acting opiates might not be giving me the full benefit of pain relief.

This was quite astounding, because my medical history is long and complex, but she understood that the recent surgery I'd had might be preventing the absorption of the medication... she said that I might be being 'short-changed'.

She took the matter up with my consultant who confirmed that she was correct - I was being short-changed because the surgery had removed part of the intestine she the absorption should take place.

... that take some knowledge and understanding, which this pharmacist obviously had.

I was very impressed - as was the consultant.

...apologies for the gobblydegook sentences - which if read quickly, might make sense...

Remember to take some probiotic with the antibiotics by the way….

Whitewavemark2

I give up.

None of you have got the point. If she now had the ability to prescribe and give me an oral antibiotic she would have done so. But it would have been the wrong diagnosis. And she would have given a patient antibiotics that were unnecessary.

I can see what you mean Whitewave mark . The pharmacists will not have our notes like doctors do and be able to look back at allergies etc. Some people are actually allergic to certain antibiotics, my late father was highly allergic to penicillin.
If the pharmacist had been able to prescribe you would have been given antibiotics that you did not need and might even have been allergic to.

Have you read the whole thread, Bella23?

Bella23

Whitewavemark2

I give up.

None of you have got the point. If she now had the ability to prescribe and give me an oral antibiotic she would have done so. But it would have been the wrong diagnosis. And she would have given a patient antibiotics that were unnecessary.

I can see what you mean Whitewave mark . The pharmacists will not have our notes like doctors do and be able to look back at allergies etc. Some people are actually allergic to certain antibiotics, my late father was highly allergic to penicillin.
If the pharmacist had been able to prescribe you would have been given antibiotics that you did not need and might even have been allergic to.

Community pharmacists do have electronic access to GP patient case records, in Wales at least, with the patient’s consent. I’m not sure about if they do in England.

So glad you are on the mend. Hope it all heals up quickly.

They are trained in pharmacy - they are not diagnosticians. Therein lies the problem. Their job is to have a thorough knowledge of drugs and to advise as to what is available and what might best suit the problem - but only after a proper medical diagnosis has been made.

This is yet another example of fobbing people off because there are not enough medics - another is sending people for physio before a diagnosis has been made.

I have found qualified pharmacists to be very knowledgeable. I have often relied on their advice and wouldn’t hesitate to do so again. They are also far more available than doctors nowadays!

Germanshepherdsmum

I have found qualified pharmacists to be very knowledgeable. I have often relied on their advice and wouldn’t hesitate to do so again. They are also far more available than doctors nowadays!

Me too.
Obviously knowing the effects certain medicines have on the body necessitates learning something of the conditions that require those particular medications.

GPs are not always spot on with diagnoses as we well know.
A&E departments are so under pressure now that student doctors are often the second point of contact for patients after a nurse.

Callistemon21

Have you read the whole thread, Bella23?

Although I can't spell surprisingly I can read and have read the whole thread.
I think it is passing too much extra to the pharmacies and with my experience this week I think have proved it in my case.
Both our pharmacies are a round trip of 16 miles. I was told by one they were closing down and left to find another myself. I order my prescription through Patient Access which I did last week.
Knowing I have quite a lengthy prescription I gave them a week and then phoned to see if it was in.
I was curtly told by the pharmacist that no they weren't she could not tell me when they would be and not bother her again with trivialities she was too busy .
This morning my DH has gone into town to see if anything has arrived as I have now run out of tablets. This is a Boots I am talking about.
If she hasn't got time to put up her prescriptions what if someone walks in with a rash or an infection how is she going to have time to read all their notes like a GP would if you had an appointment? No time to read their medical history, if they are given access and note any allergies let alone major ongoing health issues.

Luckygirl3

They are trained in pharmacy - they are not diagnosticians. Therein lies the problem. Their job is to have a thorough knowledge of drugs and to advise as to what is available and what might best suit the problem - but only after a proper medical diagnosis has been made.

This is yet another example of fobbing people off because there are not enough medics - another is sending people for physio before a diagnosis has been made.

Thank you for putting the subject more succinctly than I could.
You are right they are not diagnosticians. Like a GP or a Consultant.

Sorry if this is a bit of an essay, but it’s not true now, although maybe it was more so 20 years ago.

Community pharmacies have been involved in diagnostics for decades, offering a range of services including pregnancy testing and blood pressure checks, mole inspections and anticoagulant monitoring.

Many diagnostic services in pharmacies involve more than simply asking customers to take a test, with the pharmacy team involved in giving treatment advice and support as well.

Pharmacists are highly trained if they become prescribers, and they work within very tightly governed protocols. For common conditions requiring antibiotics, a community pharmacist will be a safe alternative to seeing a GP. They already treat patients with all sorts of other conditions.

Pharmacists are also hugely valued members of GP practice teams, they are highly sought after and there are not enough of them to meet the demand from practices. It’s very common for GPS to refer patients within the practice to the pharmacist, as they understand far more about drug interactions than the average GP, and keep patients with multiple co-morbidities safer.

This is a complementary, and equal quality service to GP care for specific conditions, which modern GPs value greatly because it allows them to concentrate on complex cases who really do need GP expertise.

But who decides if a patient needs to see a GP or a pharmacist ( if the practice does have a pharmacist)?

Patients access healthcare through lots of routes, mainly self selecting,but if you ring 111, go to A&E or Minor Injuries or contact your GP surgery here in Wales, this is what’s followed.
111.wales.nhs.uk/pdfs/31912_Minor%20Ailments%20Services_Leaflet_English_FINAL%20WEB%2021.17.pdf

Casdon

Sorry if this is a bit of an essay, but it’s not true now, although maybe it was more so 20 years ago.

Community pharmacies have been involved in diagnostics for decades, offering a range of services including pregnancy testing and blood pressure checks, mole inspections and anticoagulant monitoring.

Many diagnostic services in pharmacies involve more than simply asking customers to take a test, with the pharmacy team involved in giving treatment advice and support as well.

Pharmacists are highly trained if they become prescribers, and they work within very tightly governed protocols. For common conditions requiring antibiotics, a community pharmacist will be a safe alternative to seeing a GP. They already treat patients with all sorts of other conditions.

Pharmacists are also hugely valued members of GP practice teams, they are highly sought after and there are not enough of them to meet the demand from practices. It’s very common for GPS to refer patients within the practice to the pharmacist, as they understand far more about drug interactions than the average GP, and keep patients with multiple co-morbidities safer.

This is a complementary, and equal quality service to GP care for specific conditions, which modern GPs value greatly because it allows them to concentrate on complex cases who really do need GP expertise.

This - according to the NHS website - is what pharmacists study: preparation of medicines. action and uses of drugs and medicines including physiology, biochemistry, microbiology, pathology and pharmacology. pharmacy practice, covering laws and standards, managing symptoms, promoting healthy lifestyles and advising on drug therapy and medicines use.

The fact that "Community pharmacies have been involved in diagnostics for decades," does not make it right - it is simply a reflection of the fact that there are insufficient doctors.

The first rule of medicine (after Do No Harm) is that diagnosis precedes treatment and that diagnosis needs to be made by a medically qualified person.

I have had excellent help from pharmacists in hospital. The consultant called them in to find a way of dealing with my intractable pain, coupled with drug sensitivities.

Pharmacists are excellent in their knowledge of drugs, their interactions and uses but they are NOT diagnosticians, nor should they be asked to be ... unless of course they undergo medical training.

They should not be used to plug gaps in medical services. We are gradually sliding into a situation where non qualified people are making diagnoses and we must resist this.