Latest Dr's strike announced

Rosie51

I'm all for the doctors getting a pay rise, although I doubt it can be anything like the 35% they're asking. They are not alone in having had their pay diminished over the years, others who are paid by the public purse also suffer. I wonder how much support there'd be for the police and prison officers to go on strike for better pay? I guess we'll never know because for them it's illegal to strike.
I think fairness for all not just the few should be the baseline.

" starting salary of £36,775 rising to £37,975 at week 30, or £34,820 for our Met Officer Gateway Programme (MOGP) entry route. Salary including allowances.
salary increases to £39,181 after two years or £40,837 after three years for PCDA, upon satisfactory completion of probation. Salary including allowances.
salary will increase each year up to over £54,000 within seven years
on promotion to the next police rank – sergeant – you can earn over £57,000. Most officers apply for sergeant after five years as a constable."

Perhaps that's because their pay has kept up with inflation?

ronib

*foxie48*. I have never worked for a company who could not afford to pay me so I am a bit confused. This country has a capitalist system.
Staff are not undervalued by patients. I believe though that the opposite cannot be said.

I doubt you would continue to work for a company that paid you what they thought they could afford if it didn't reflect the skills and experience that you had and similar employers were prepared to pay you more.. It's the govt that decides on what the NHS can afford, not a company operating in a capitalist system and clearly what they see as "affordable" does not reflect the skills and experience that junior doctors think they offer to the NHS. eg why are junior doctors less valuable to the NHS in 2023 than they were in 2013? There is a shortage of doctors, doctors are leaving part way through their training to take up jobs in other countries or are not completing their training. The facts speak for themselves. The only reason they have seen their pay effectively decrease very significantly over this period of Conservative goverment is that the govt has decided not to pay them properly and taken advantage of the fact that doctors have been very reluctant to take industrial action.
With regard to how doctors are valued by patients, many of the comments I've seen suggest patients and potential patients do not think they should be paid properly so clearly they don't "value" them

ronib

Dickens Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?
Also both the BMA and the government are equally responsible for the 10th strike over this pay dispute. No side has set out its table with any clarity. The public is not given the opportunity to see the differences between pay demands and pay offers in real figures. Why not?

Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?

Presumably in the same way the Judiciary is funded?

I think the data / information on the pay demands, the government's offer, etc is available, but I don't know where to find it either.

foxie48. I have never worked for a company who could not afford to pay me so I am a bit confused. This country has a capitalist system.
Staff are not undervalued by patients. I believe though that the opposite cannot be said.

ronib

*MaizieD*. My biggest concern and objection is the most unfair treatment of patients - do you acknowledge that patients have rights too?
A proper analysis of the existing pay offer has yet to be seen.

That's not the junior doctor's fault, perhaps the govt should lay out what they have offered but this has been going on for a very long time and for most of it the govt has refused to meet with the BMA unless it drops it's strike action. It's also used a test of "affordability" rather than "fairness". I wonder how many of us would continue working for an employer on the basis of what the employer could afford rather than on what our skills and experience merits?
With regard to patient's rights, surely they are entitled to have a medical service which is properly funded and resourced so they get the care they need? You will never have a properly resourced service if staff are underpaid and under valued.

MaizieD. My biggest concern and objection is the most unfair treatment of patients - do you acknowledge that patients have rights too?
A proper analysis of the existing pay offer has yet to be seen.

I'm all for the doctors getting a pay rise, although I doubt it can be anything like the 35% they're asking. They are not alone in having had their pay diminished over the years, others who are paid by the public purse also suffer. I wonder how much support there'd be for the police and prison officers to go on strike for better pay? I guess we'll never know because for them it's illegal to strike.
I think fairness for all not just the few should be the baseline.

I don't recall people being critical of doctors' pay before the tories inaugurated cuts to public expenditure post 2010.

All that the doctors want is to restore their pay levels to those those uncontroversial levels in place before the tories took an axe to them.

It always surprises me to find so many people who object to others being treated fairly...

foxie48 what is a decent settlement?
What are the precise numbers, what is the price difference in the amount demanded and the amount offered?

It’s true that during the early years of training, doctors can’t shop around but the moment they are in a position to do so, they are off to other countries. It would seem.

ronib

Dickens Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?
Also both the BMA and the government are equally responsible for the 10th strike over this pay dispute. No side has set out its table with any clarity. The public is not given the opportunity to see the differences between pay demands and pay offers in real figures. Why not?

I think the blame goes entirely to this govt that has taken advantage of the Doctor's unwillingness to take strike action in the past. The Junior doctors have for years seen their pay and working conditions being eroded whilst their living expenses, exam fees etc have increased. Junior doctors effectively have one employer during their training, they can't shop around so their pay and working conditions should be protected and that hasn't happened. These strikes are a measure of how angry doctors are and I doubt that bullying tactics will work. Just give them a decent settlement and be done with it.

They still get my full support and all my blame goes to the government.
This is despite having my vascular surgeon and separate cardio thoracic surgeon appointments cancelled and hopefully rescheduled a month and 2 months later.
I've needed to be seen urgently recently and although overworked they were there when needed.

Dickens Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?
Also both the BMA and the government are equally responsible for the 10th strike over this pay dispute. No side has set out its table with any clarity. The public is not given the opportunity to see the differences between pay demands and pay offers in real figures. Why not?

Again, not a peep from the well paid Amanda Pritchard …

Dickens I totally agree with you. we should have a cross party initiative to try to sort out the NHS. TBH I don't think the NHS is capable of providing the cradle to the grave free treatment that was envisioned in 1948, but I'm worried that we will end up with a two tier system that disadvantages the already disadvantaged. I think there are some difficult decisions to be made about how we fund the NHS and what it will provide and this will not prove popular with many tax payers so if it's left to the government (regardless of which party) we won't necessarily get a fair and just system that works.

Vintagewhine

The government plan to place the blame for failures in the NHS on junior doctors seems to be working.

It's a question of how many people will 'buy' it.

The problems and failures within the NHS have been growing for years and years and, frankly, you can't put all the blame on this current government.

Obviously the strike isn't helping matters. But it is itself a symptom of the wider problems.

Personally, I believe the NHS should be separated from direct government involvement to protect it from political dogma and emotive, headline-grabbing, short-term directives and policies.

The government plan to place the blame for failures in the NHS on junior doctors seems to be working.

The G isn’t derided more than the DT? Or DM?
I just think some articles in the G particularly have bordered on creative writing when attacking the government. It’s the word ‘sources’ which gives it away.

ronib

Dickens my sanity went ages ago but it is important to read a number of different newspapers preferably free ones.
Religion is a matter of belief. Newspapers should dabble in an approximation to truth.
There are lots of other sources online too thankfully. In fact from your armchair, it’s possible to research all sorts of information when the mood strikes.

I agree with you about reading different newspapers. But I don't understand why the G is so derided - any more than any other papers.

Sonicbear01

They lost mine a long time ago. Never interested in ME, just pushing more pills & potions. Not a clue about how the problems came about, and not interested. Just treat the symptoms with some chemicals. Think they must be on a commission and bonuses from Big Pharma. Profits over caring.

Doctors and other medical professional work to NHS guidelines laid down by NICE. Guidelines they are expected to follow.

If you are looking for more holistic treatment, you need to look at alternative therapy.

However, if you present with symptoms, they do try to find the cause of them - which usually, but not always, requires drugs.

... but, this is cause for concern...

www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2016/may/18/patients-pharma-payments-doctors-database

Dickens my sanity went ages ago but it is important to read a number of different newspapers preferably free ones.
Religion is a matter of belief. Newspapers should dabble in an approximation to truth.
There are lots of other sources online too thankfully. In fact from your armchair, it’s possible to research all sorts of information when the mood strikes.

ronib

I read the Guardian daily. I don’t believe in it. I try to retain my brain as best I can.

If you don't "believe in it"- why do you read it every day? Especially if it's endangering your sanity?

I sometimes disagree with its opinion pieces - but other than that, it tends to accurately report the news as it happened along with the rest of the press - giving links where necessary.

They lost mine a long time ago. Never interested in ME, just pushing more pills & potions. Not a clue about how the problems came about, and not interested. Just treat the symptoms with some chemicals. Think they must be on a commission and bonuses from Big Pharma. Profits over caring.

I read the Guardian daily. I don’t believe in it. I try to retain my brain as best I can.

think not thing drat it...

Casdon

Here is the YouGov link ronib specially for you.
yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48279-public-support-for-strikes-slips-as-2024-begins
Obviously only lefties and doctors read the Guardian, so it’s a notoriously unreliable source.

I've found during my working life, when people used to buy papers on their way to the office, many of those (me among them) that bought the G would also frequently read The Times and The Telegraph.

My late ex, who as a docker / lighterman, read both to get a 'balanced' view, and used to leave them lying around on the barges where others would also read them.

In spite of their bias, all of the above papers give a far more accurate recording of facts and figures, where the tabloids are quite hot on opinion overriding both.

The real Lefties down in the docks used to read The Socialist Worker, The Daily Mirror, and The Morning Star... The Guardian was last on the list of reading material.

So many thing the G is a Leftie paper- it's liberally Left, but I'd say it's more middle of the road.