Are GPs as busy as they keep telling us they are?

Staggering view from Lisaangell110. Victim blaming is one way of responding

It prompted me to think about our police and military who can develop PTSD directly linked to their service to us. It’s like that awful old saying “if you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen’. Or blaming miners whose lungs are wrecked - well they knew the risk etc

Employers have a duty of care. The rate at which we are losing doctors, police, teachers should be telling us something about how the duty of care is failing

SueDonim thank you for the update on your daughter. I hope she is managing now and manages to complete her training.

With attitudes like that of Lisaangel110it’s no wonder doctors leave the profession or the speciality.

Lisaangel10

SueDonim

My dd is on a GP training scheme. She is one of the Covid graduates. She had a breakdown a couple of years ago and now works PT. Her PT work consists of four 12 hours shifts a week plus weekend on call work. She is supposed to have regular paid study days but none has been forthcoming and she does that in her own time.

I wonder how many others jobs there are where 48+hrs a week is considered part time?

They know all this when they enter the profession.

With attitudes like that it’s no wonder so many doctors leave. Some people just have no idea at all.

I hope your daughter is managing okay SueDonim, that sounds very challenging.

SueDonim

My dd is on a GP training scheme. She is one of the Covid graduates. She had a breakdown a couple of years ago and now works PT. Her PT work consists of four 12 hours shifts a week plus weekend on call work. She is supposed to have regular paid study days but none has been forthcoming and she does that in her own time.

I wonder how many others jobs there are where 48+hrs a week is considered part time?

They know all this when they enter the profession.

SueDonim, thanks for up to date first hand info. We seem to do so much moaning and criticising these days. Being thankful seems low down and accusing mp’s, gp’s teachers etc of being lazy high up

My dd is on a GP training scheme. She is one of the Covid graduates. She had a breakdown a couple of years ago and now works PT. Her PT work consists of four 12 hours shifts a week plus weekend on call work. She is supposed to have regular paid study days but none has been forthcoming and she does that in her own time.

I wonder how many others jobs there are where 48+hrs a week is considered part time?

foxie48

It is an unacceptably high rate of attrition, especially as they will have a minimum of 7/8 years of expensive training. There is already a huge shortage of cardiac consultants and waiting lists in every area are extremely long. There is currently a shortage of 1,400 anaesthetists with 25% intending to retire within the next five years, this will not only have a huge effect on waiting lists for operations etc but also on the ability of the NHS to train more anaesthetists as it is one of the most closely supervised medical specialisms.

Yes, foxie48, of course, but other specialties are very over subscribed, and there are doctors unable to get on training schemes every year too. The roles that the doctors who leave training schemes go into also need doctors too of course. Anaesthetics is a specialty that has always struggled to recruit for example. I don’t know what the answer is other than trying more doctors, and tempting UK doctors working abroad to return, but in addition tot all those issues I think there’s a real, and relatively recent (ie within the last 20 years) problem with general practice, it just doesn’t attract the number of recruits it used to.

Sorry the above was for Casdon

It is an unacceptably high rate of attrition, especially as they will have a minimum of 7/8 years of expensive training. There is already a huge shortage of cardiac consultants and waiting lists in every area are extremely long. There is currently a shortage of 1,400 anaesthetists with 25% intending to retire within the next five years, this will not only have a huge effect on waiting lists for operations etc but also on the ability of the NHS to train more anaesthetists as it is one of the most closely supervised medical specialisms.

Grandma HH. re your grandson. Acute tonsillitis such as you describe can be diagnosed by whoever did describe those signs that you relayed to us, These are classic signs. It was not strictly necessary in this case for the doctor who was already unwell to look at the child's throat as these observations had obviously been done by a competent person.

Mirren:

"YES! I'm a GP.
We work very, very hard.
The only reason you aren't seeing packed waiting room is the appointment systems are more streamlined.
Please don't underestimate how hard we all work. It can be brutal."
please not, patients need to know , at the end of the consultation, how to proceed. It is not enough for the GP to say "let me know how you get on", the GP should also say e.g. "Ring the receptionist with a message" or alternatively "Ring for a telephone consultation with me" or whatever applies.

I don’t think ‘dropping out of training’ means all the doctors are leaving the NHS. Some do, but others go into non training grade medical posts, take sabbaticals, take time out to have children, diversify into areas like Public Health, research, etc.etc. There will always be an attrition rate.
What has happened though, is that general practice is a less popular option now for young doctors choosing where to specialise.

Dropping out of their chosen career is such a waste of the trainees time and the public money. We need to look at why and this will help to keep more professionals in post.
Nearly twenty per cent of teachers leave their post in the first two years, never to return.

One in four doctors drops out of training in the first two years after foundation level and this increases to two in five by five years. I feel that anything that keeps doctors working in the NHS is good. I find it interesting that people often think that punitive measures ie make them work for x number of years for the NHS, decrease their flexibility to work part time etc will help to retain doctors. It won't. Doctors have many transferable skills that make them attractive to employers outside of medicine and every doctor lost to patient care is extremely expensive.
The care given to doctors in training is pretty shocking if an employer treated their employees like junior (resident) doctors are treated they would be up before an industrial tribunal. We don't need measures to prevent doctors from working less hours, we need conditions that make it easier for doctors to work more.
DD did several placements in GP surgeries during her training and she absolutely hated every one (as did most of her fellow students). I think we need to understand why and posts that suggest GPs are lazy (vast majority are not), useless (most of them are not) and empty chairs mean GPs are doing nothing (generally they are talking to patients by phone looking at their records on a computer screen and effectively dealing with three times the number they would with a physical meeting) are part of the reason GPs are a pretty unhappy bunch of people.

Earlier this year, The Royal College of General Practitioners made the following statement:-

"Six out ten job seeking GPs have struggled to find a vacancy to apply for over the past year."

The reason for this is mainly that surgeries have been encouraged to save money by employing paramedic practitioners. I believe that in some cases there have been financial subsidies to encourage their employment.

Most immigrants are relatively young and many won’t even need NHS care

Not until they are pregnant possibly. And then they are more likely to have larger families, who will certainly need medical care in the future.

Or only doctors?

Another interesting question;

Should all graduates (as well as doctors as frequently suggested on here) be forced to pay back some or all of the costs of their degree covered by the country if they opt to go abroad to work?

Just asking.

An interesting question, particularly relevant after the Kemi Badenoch comments re maternity pay;

Should GPs with children not be allowed to work part time?

foxie48

When anyone complains about doctors working part time I realise how little people know about the training of medics and how difficult it can be to have a "normal" life with hobbies, friends, marriage and children. The sort of things that actually make for a balanced life.
For many doctors, working part time means they stay working as doctors rather than looking outside medicine for a different career. Actually many doctors choose general practice because it means they can work part time ie work the same days each week, avoid working nights, weekends and bank holidays which means they can have children and organise childcare for them.
DD is a hospital doctor, fairly senior with nearly 10 years of experience. Her shift pattern is very irregular and since qualifying she has worked in at least 10 different hospitals, some involving long distances of travel. This means she often sleeps at the hospital when she's doing 12 hour shifts as it's not worth driving home to try to sleep before the next shift. She's 35 and would like children. She'll almost certainly work part-time is she has a child as getting reliable childcare with the flexibility she'll need is almost impossible unless you can afford a nanny. How dare anyone suggest that she shouldn't work part time for part of career! She's paid off her student loans, worked in Covid ICUs thoughout the pandemic, which took a huge toll on all hospital staff and is still taking exams and jumping through all the training hoops it requires to become a consultant. fwiw she earns less than school friends who work in recruitment, IT and the law, who have had children already and guess what, several now work part time!

This.

My daughter is a GP. Twelve years in training from start to finish. Still studying and sitting exams at 41 years of age, although she has been a fully qualified GP now for several years. Currently studying for advanced exams in management of the menopause. Exam will be in three weeks.
GPs not actually in the Practice seeing patients might be doing one of several things:
1) studying for further exams
2) taking exams
3) working in senior management roles for the area (my daughter did this and was instrumental in setting up the vaccination centres across the south/east corridor during and after Covid
4) working in other specialties in hospitals
5) attending meetings in the Practice
6) attending area meetings outside the Practice
7) paperwork

What GPs are not doing during their paid hours
1) golf
2) childcare
3) wasting time
4) thinking of ways to avoid seeing patients

lixy

Yes, they are.
GPS do home visits out of surgery hours, telephone consultations and a mountain of the dreaded paperwork.

Some enlightened practices now have a time dedicated to telephone consultations rather than each go trying to squeeze them in between face-to-face consultations; maybe you were there while this was happening?

But they always did do- lots and lots of home visits, and on top of full surgeries morning and evening, 18 for each surgeries + emergency appointments and telephone calls. Then probably teaching commitments and industrial appointments and visits to Care Homes, and night calls, and week-end calls. Oh and the dreaded paperwork, the bane of their life probably very time consuming Insurance reports.

That was TOOOOOOOOO much- but gone from sublime to ridiculous, as so many things. Most part-time too, so little or no continuity of care.

foxie, I do understand your exasperation, but would say that my GP practice ( and many others) can't really said to be staffed fully if working one -day- a -week is the norm.
The answer , of course, is more doctors, but this is not short term fix, and many of us, in our seventies, may not live to see this achieved!

When anyone complains about doctors working part time I realise how little people know about the training of medics and how difficult it can be to have a "normal" life with hobbies, friends, marriage and children. The sort of things that actually make for a balanced life.
For many doctors, working part time means they stay working as doctors rather than looking outside medicine for a different career. Actually many doctors choose general practice because it means they can work part time ie work the same days each week, avoid working nights, weekends and bank holidays which means they can have children and organise childcare for them.
DD is a hospital doctor, fairly senior with nearly 10 years of experience. Her shift pattern is very irregular and since qualifying she has worked in at least 10 different hospitals, some involving long distances of travel. This means she often sleeps at the hospital when she's doing 12 hour shifts as it's not worth driving home to try to sleep before the next shift. She's 35 and would like children. She'll almost certainly work part-time is she has a child as getting reliable childcare with the flexibility she'll need is almost impossible unless you can afford a nanny. How dare anyone suggest that she shouldn't work part time for part of career! She's paid off her student loans, worked in Covid ICUs thoughout the pandemic, which took a huge toll on all hospital staff and is still taking exams and jumping through all the training hoops it requires to become a consultant. fwiw she earns less than school friends who work in recruitment, IT and the law, who have had children already and guess what, several now work part time!

My Gp practise has 13 doctors shared over 2 sites. A nurse practioner and several nurses. Consultations are done over the phone or the receptionist calls back to say Dr advised go to A&E. (On last occasion there were 3 people from my road also sitting at the hospital after same practise sent them there ) I have never seen my gp . And several work from home . I don't doubt that some work hard but maybe try to become more accessible to sick and vunerable?

With my surgery, you can no longer make an appointment with a doctor. That system has been scrapped completely.

The only way you will see a doctor is if one of them decides you need to be seen after completing an online consult form.

The problem with the online form though is that it can only operate to a safe level capacity, and only during surgery opening hours and, because demand outstrips supply, this means in effect that the facility can be turned off by 10am when capacity has been reached. The reality is that it's a replacement for the 8am telephone call rush.

If you are feeling seriously unwell - maybe throwing up, etc - then filling in an online form just isn't on - so you are allowed to call reception who will talk to a doctor. The most likely outcome is that you will be told to call 111 or advised to go to A&E.

If your problem is less urgent but needs the attention of a doctor, then you have to pre-compose the description of your ailment - and what you expect the surgery to do about it (the form asks you that question). There is a word-limit on the forms - if your description over runs it you have to re-compose. Whilst doing so - there might be a red flashing warning that the system will be turned off in 5/10 minutes because it is nearing capacity. It happened to me, I just gave up.

GP surgeries are now little more than health 'management' centres.

There are not enough doctors, and many work part-time. Doctors used to work full-time so there has to be a reason why so many don't.

From the little I've seen and the bit I know from a friend who works in Reception - doctors are weighed-down with paperwork and administrative changes. They are doing too much admin which prevents them from doing F2F with their patients.

My own GP I discovered, works part-time - but is mostly found in her room working over those part-time hours. Unpaid. Maybe that's the reason why they work part-time in the first place?