Should we all have the right to a same sex carer?

Galaxy

The risk for men is not the same. I too think men are entitled to privacy and dignity but in terms of safety the risk for women of different sex care is higher. This is particularly true for women with learning disabilities.

I would have hoped that would go without saying, but it seems not.

Why is it that whenever women ask for anything the response (even from other women) is 'what about the men'?

Wanting safety and dignity for women is not saying that men are not entitled to either or both of those things, is it? As was said upthread, however, women always have to advocate for ourselves, and I don't see it as unreasonable to expect that men could do the same if they felt unhappy about opposite-sex intimate care (those with learning or communication disabilities aside).

Men are not at risk from women in the same way as women are from men (obviously this is a generalisation, although I suppose that also has to be spelt out🙄), so I would expect men's concerns to be differently focused, but that is for them to say, not for me.

It may be the case that some women can't see the difference between medical procedures and personal care, but others clearly can (me included). Why should the concerns of those who can see a difference be subsumed into the absence of concern of those who can't? All that is being asked is that we should have a right to a same-sex carer if we want one, not that everyone should be forced to do so.

theworriedwell

Dickens is that victim blaming? Vulnerable dying man horribly abused but hey he should have campaigned from his death bed.

No, that isn't what I meant.

The system of healthcare has developed around women, in the main, taking the caring roles.

If men in modern society collectively feel uncomfortable with this - and I wouldn't question it - then they must campaign collectively to change the system. Because that is the only way change happens. That is what I am talking about.

So, no, I'm not victim-blaming at all, and I wasn't referring to the man you have told us about. Elderly people, men and women, have been horribly abused in their own homes, and in an institutional setting, by rogue carers, because they are vulnerable.

Dickens is that victim blaming? Vulnerable dying man horribly abused but hey he should have campaigned from his death bed.

Galaxy

No one is saying it isnt as bad. I am saying that statistically the risk in terms of certain crimes is higher in terms of Male carers, so if men are given a female carer their risk doesnt increase, in fact it lessens.

Well I'm not sure if that would be a comfort to the poor vulnerable abused old man. People saying it isn't the same risk for men are the reason no one acted to protect him.

theworriedwell

Galaxy

The risk for men is not the same. I too think men are entitled to privacy and dignity but in terms of safety the risk for women of different sex care is higher. This is particularly true for women with learning disabilities.

But for the individual it happens to it's the same. I don't suppose a vulnerable man whose been abused would say it isn't as bad as a woman being abused because it happens to more women. It doesn't work like that does it. If a human being is a used that is as wrong as any other person being abused.

It might not be right, but men have been used to women as carers and nurses since Florence Nightingale helped wounded soldiers during the Crimean War. Maybe that's why we don't hear them object too frequently, because it's part of the culture they grew / grow up with?

Male doctors did the surgery, and female nurses did the mopping up afterward.

The change has been gradual and then speeded up a bit, so of course there's an imbalance - because 'caring' is still largely done by women, and the 'clever' stuff by men.

Yes, the system is hard-pressed and carers are at a premium - largely, I suspect, because they're so poorly paid. But I still think women should be able to choose a female carer - and, if available men a male carer. However, I don't think most men will object because of the reason stated. And if they do - as someone stated above, they should campaign for that right like women have had to fight for just about every right they've been 'granted'.

MissAdventure

I would be very, very unhappy about a male carer.
It's fine for people not to mind, bit i most certainly do.

I feel the same MissA but some seem to feel because they wouldn't care then nobody should. Yet I'm sure there would be situations I'd not be fussed about that they would be.

My husband's maiden aunt who had never been touched intimately by a man let alone been seen naked by one would have felt humiliated by having a male carer come in to shower and clean her. Would her abject misery as a woman in her 90s not have counted because others wouldn't bat an eyelid? Fortunately the private care company engaged ensured she had the same female carers throughout.

No one is saying it isnt as bad. I am saying that statistically the risk in terms of certain crimes is higher in terms of Male carers, so if men are given a female carer their risk doesnt increase, in fact it lessens.

I'm probably not objective as a new sn old couple, he was very frail and terminally ill and she was in the early stages of dementia. I reported what was happening and guess what happened? Nothing, just an old dying man being abused in a vile way but didn't matter.

Galaxy

The risk for men is not the same. I too think men are entitled to privacy and dignity but in terms of safety the risk for women of different sex care is higher. This is particularly true for women with learning disabilities.

But for the individual it happens to it's the same. I don't suppose a vulnerable man whose been abused would say it isn't as bad as a woman being abused because it happens to more women. It doesn't work like that does it. If a human being is a used that is as wrong as any other person being abused.

The risk for men is not the same. I too think men are entitled to privacy and dignity but in terms of safety the risk for women of different sex care is higher. This is particularly true for women with learning disabilities.

We should all have a right to express a preference, perhaps, but in the current situation, with such shortages of staff- this is unlikely to be successful. Men have much less choice than women.

Of course doctors do 'intimate' examinations at home if you are pregnant and having a home birth.

I truly can't see the difference between a male doctor doing a gyneacological or obstetric examination, and a male nurse or carer washing or helping with toilet. You can't do the first without having a very close look and very close touch- but you can do the second with discretion. As said, men very rarely get the choice.

I think there is a big difference between a doctor or male midwife/nurse doing medical examinations or procedures, and someone washing or doing other intimate care.

I would not be happy with a male carer doing the latter, and I think we should all have a right to express a preference. I don't know what happens if intimate care is needed and there are no women on shift, but it seems to be a fairly basic right not to be intimately touched by someone of the opposite sex (as opposed to declared 'gender') if we don't want to be. If more women than men are in care, then surely there should be more female than male carers on the staff of a home? This is within the law, and should make organising rotas so that there are enough female staff to go round easier. In a hospital that may well be more difficult though.

DS organised some paid-for carers when I came home from hospital after a major operation last summer.
The organiser (sales person) asked me if I would object to a male carer. I was a bit reluctant, but agreed. Then he asked if I would object to "a person of colour". I wasn't sure if that question was even legal, but I agreed.
During the following weeks, most of the carers who came were young men from India, Pakistan or African countries including Sudan. I was asked to give the names of some I liked, so that they would come more often, but when I produced four names, I was asked for two more. I couldn't see the point of that. Of course, they had been vetted by the organisation, and I did get a few females, but only I think one female native British person.
It was a bit weird and after about two weeks, I'd had enough, but the contract was for six weeks (quite unnecessary) so that was a lot of money down the drain, kindly meant by DS and I did pay him back although he has a huge job and earns £££.

cornergran

In hospital I shared a bay with an elderly lady admitted after falling in her garden, she had dementia. I can still hear her screams when a young male nurse in training was told by the staff nurse to to take her for a shower. Two of us complained and were told that’s just how it has to be. Appalling.

I would want a female for personal care and have made a note to that effect in my health LPA in case I’m not able to speak for myself.

Lord, but she must have been beyond terrified - confused by her condition anyway, but having a male staff member undressing her and showering her must have felt as if she was being assaulted by a hostile stranger.

In hospital I shared a bay with an elderly lady admitted after falling in her garden, she had dementia. I can still hear her screams when a young male nurse in training was told by the staff nurse to to take her for a shower. Two of us complained and were told that’s just how it has to be. Appalling.

I would want a female for personal care and have made a note to that effect in my health LPA in case I’m not able to speak for myself.

So would I MissA.

theworriedwell

Allira

A doctor requires a chaperone when he makes intimate investigations.
Well, I have found that is not always the case but perhaps the rules have changed.

I don't think it happens with home visits. I've never known a doctor to bring a chaperone with him.

Might he do an intimate examination at home though?

I would be very, very unhappy about a male carer.
It's fine for people not to mind, bit i most certainly do.

Allira

^A doctor requires a chaperone when he makes intimate investigations.^
Well, I have found that is not always the case but perhaps the rules have changed.

I don't think it happens with home visits. I've never known a doctor to bring a chaperone with him.

Casdon

Allira

A doctor requires a chaperone when he makes intimate investigations.
Well, I have found that is not always the case but perhaps the rules have changed.

Yes Allira, the guidance has recently been updated.
www.gmc-uk.org/professional-standards/the-professional-standards/intimate-examinations-and-chaperones

Thanks Casdon
My experience was many years ago.
The GP was a locum and didn't become a permanent member of staff.

Fartooold

I am amazed there are more female carers than male, quite honestly if I needed bed bath or shower I would not care. I remember the outcry in 1977 when I started my midwifery that a London hospital were training male midwives 🫣. One of the best nurses I worked with was male!

Totally agree. I spent many months in hospital and unable to get out of bed and required constant care, including washing and toilet. The only thing I cared about is that they were kind, gentle and had a GSOH.

At the moment, many people can't get care at all- so the sex of the carer, seems unimportant to me.

Why should we care about a male nurse, but be happy to be prodded by a male doctor or Consultant? And why should males mostly not have the choice due to lack of male nurses, carers and doctors?

This thread relates to preference not safety surely?

Sago

A friend’s mother was recently discharged from hospital with a care package.
On her first day home a male carer arrived to shower her, she turned him away.
It got me thinking how much I would hate it in the same position.
Should we all have the have the right to a same sex carer?

On her first day home a male carer arrived to shower her, she turned him away.

I think that within the context of one-to-one care in your home then yes, we should have the choice.

It's a question of vulnerability and safety - or, at least, the perception of it.

I know there are not the number of male carers required for men, but a man is probably far safer with a female carer showering him than a woman is with a man

With regard to Oldfrills comment on men refusing male care due to homophobia. I don’t know of any research on this but my feeling is it’s more a kind of macho thing: that they don’t like admitting their vulnerability to another male. The not asking for directions syndrome applied to needing care.

But being looked after by a female is - well Im sorry to say- pretty much what they are used to in several respects all their lives.

There is a difference between a male doctor, who is the equivalent of a tradesman coming to fix the plumbing and a care worker who will be caring forthe whole body in an intimate way.

- and yes, I do think we should be able to stipulate what sex any personal carer should be.