Should we all have the right to a same sex carer?

Men have had to accept female nurses , as women had to accept male doctors

OldFrill

I never experienced a man who objected to a female doing personal care, although some objected to a male carer and many preferred a female carer.

That’s my experience. We had a lovely polite gentleman who looked forward to his daily visit from his girls as he called them.

Anniebach I assume your post is prompted by maddyone's. I'm sure maddy wouldn't say you have lost your dignity and would be pleased for you that you feel this way. However we all have our own personal triggers for what we consider loss of dignity. My mother thought her dignity had departed when she couldn't feed herself, felt she'd reverted to an infant like state. No amount of reassurance could convince her not to feel like that. Others in the same position as her wouldn't necessarily feel the same.

I live in a nursing home, ‘Keeping dignity’ ? I haven’t lost my dignity because I cannot use the lavatory

OldFrill

Casdon

OldFrill

I never experienced a man who objected to a female doing personal care, although some objected to a male carer and many preferred a female carer.

It happens very regularly on wards, but it’s impossible to provide 24 hour male nursing care. We assume men aren’t bothered, because it’s the way care and nursing are structured. Many of them though - they don’t get asked. I find it very sad, but there are also many people, particularly older people, who strongly object to people with a different skin colour looking after them. in an ideal world, everybody would have a choice of carer or nurse, but we aren’t in an ideal world, we’re in a situation where the choice is unfortunately take what is available or receive no care, particularly in the community.

In too many cases of men refusing male care it was homophobic.

Did they actually admit that was the reason? Did you encounter homophobic women objecting to female intimate care, something I've never thought about?

Casdon

OldFrill

I never experienced a man who objected to a female doing personal care, although some objected to a male carer and many preferred a female carer.

It happens very regularly on wards, but it’s impossible to provide 24 hour male nursing care. We assume men aren’t bothered, because it’s the way care and nursing are structured. Many of them though - they don’t get asked. I find it very sad, but there are also many people, particularly older people, who strongly object to people with a different skin colour looking after them. in an ideal world, everybody would have a choice of carer or nurse, but we aren’t in an ideal world, we’re in a situation where the choice is unfortunately take what is available or receive no care, particularly in the community.

In too many cases of men refusing male care it was homophobic.

Rosie51

How much evidence is there that men want same sex care but are 'conditioned' to accept opposite sex care against their wishes? If they're not speaking up and advocating for themselves how will it ever get known let alone addressed? I'd say women have been far more conditioned to accept the boundaries imposed by men in all aspects of our lives. We've had to raise our voices to get anything changed, men are equally capable, they're not children.

Exactly.

I don't like the sex inequality. If someone feels uncomfortable with someone of the opposite sex they should be allowed to choose, but I think it should work for both sexes. Lots of men are shy. Or if one has been abused in the past they might not want to be in a vulnerable position with the gender who abused them, and that could be either way around. A woman who has been abused by a woman might prefer a man.

In prison for example I have read that female prisoners can insist on intimate search by a female officer but male prisoners cannot choose.

When I was in hospital during covid I had the most gentle, caring male HCA looking after me, he was Romanian and although the ward was frantically busy he couldn't have been more attentive and sensitive.. and as another OP said if we are feeling so weak and need a wash etc we don't really care who does it..
Though if it were a regular occurrence I think that ideally people should be given a choice of who carries out personal treatments.. but it probably isn't possible with such staff shortages..

I would suspect that on this issue the Male viewpoint might be more complex than the female one. So both will be interested in the privacy and dignity angle, but men especially if they are vulnerable, would statistically be safer with a female carer. That might not be the way men think though, I think safety is probably very much a female perspective.

Here is the Welsh policy guidance Rosie51.i think it’s probably very similar in England. There’s plenty of evidence online about males and female rights and preferences for care if you want to take a look - sorry, I’m out this afternoon so I don’t have the time to do a full search right now.
app.croneri.co.uk/topics/personal-care/gender-related-care-wales-policy

Allira

NonGrannyMoll

I don't think human rights extend to having every last thing we want! If we pay for our own care, I imagine there'd be a choice - so pay for it! Besides, I doubt whether the NHS staffing base would be able to offer that kind of personal choice. Personally, I've always been happy to get what I'm given when I need nursing help - the alternative (that is, going without entirely) isn't attractive!

Home care has to be paid for.

Just because we pay for the NHS through taxation, not directly, does not mean we should not be accorded some dignity and if women feel uncomfortable with having a male nurse or carer they should be entitled to express that view.

One on one care at home is in a different category altogether. Old people who need care are very vulnerable, men too.

Well said Allira
The care home I work in always accommodates what our residents want when it comes to intimate care such as bathing and showering and help with dressing.
I can’t imagine the indignity of being helped to shower by a man other than my DP for the future.
Men who need care may or may not want a same sex carer but should be consulted just the same.

Last post should have quoted Casdon.

How much evidence is there that men want same sex care but are 'conditioned' to accept opposite sex care against their wishes? If they're not speaking up and advocating for themselves how will it ever get known let alone addressed? I'd say women have been far more conditioned to accept the boundaries imposed by men in all aspects of our lives. We've had to raise our voices to get anything changed, men are equally capable, they're not children.

When I was in hospital with Covid in 2021, I was offered a bedpan or commode, but despite the fact that I could barely walk, and consequently had to be accompanied, I preferred to use the toilet attached to the four bed room I was in. I had to take my drip and oxygen canister with me (the nurse carried the oxygen and I hung on to the drip like a walking aid) and the nurse/carer held on to me. I’m sure I was much more of a nuisance to the staff on their busy ward, but they always respected my wishes.The staff who accompanied me were always female. They asked me if I wanted them to stay as I used the bathroom but I said no. They pulled the door to (not fully closed) and waited immediately outside. I can’t say it was easy, but my determination to maintain my dignity, despite being really ill, was what was important. I was already a patient, with drips, and drugs, and oxygen, I needed to still be a person with dignity.

Allira

^A doctor requires a chaperone when he makes intimate investigations.^
Well, I have found that is not always the case but perhaps the rules have changed.

Yes Allira, the guidance has recently been updated.
www.gmc-uk.org/professional-standards/the-professional-standards/intimate-examinations-and-chaperones

A doctor requires a chaperone when he makes intimate investigations.
Well, I have found that is not always the case but perhaps the rules have changed.

they are conditioned to accept the status quo. What that means is that they seek help later than women do, and that they know that there are insufficient male carers, so they put up with women.

Evidence for that cosy blanket statement.

A doctor requires a chaperone when he makes intimate investigations.
It’s not a thinly veiled insult (ridiculous suggestion) to say what I did about rotas, I do understand how they work, and I’m happy to explain in detail to you why designing a rotas which meets all the requirements does not always facilitate a single sex carer or nurse for women. I can confidently say that if a woman requests single sex care it is provided whenever possible, which is how it should be. As for men campaigning for single sex carers, they are conditioned to accept the status quo. What that means is that they seek help later than women do, and that they know that there are insufficient male carers, so they put up with women. What the answer to that is has not yet been resolved.

NonGrannyMoll

I don't think human rights extend to having every last thing we want! If we pay for our own care, I imagine there'd be a choice - so pay for it! Besides, I doubt whether the NHS staffing base would be able to offer that kind of personal choice. Personally, I've always been happy to get what I'm given when I need nursing help - the alternative (that is, going without entirely) isn't attractive!

Home care has to be paid for.

Just because we pay for the NHS through taxation, not directly, does not mean we should not be accorded some dignity and if women feel uncomfortable with having a male nurse or carer they should be entitled to express that view.

One on one care at home is in a different category altogether. Old people who need care are very vulnerable, men too.

I am amazed there are more female carers than male, quite honestly if I needed bed bath or shower I would not care. I remember the outcry in 1977 when I started my midwifery that a London hospital were training male midwives 🫣. One of the best nurses I worked with was male!

Casdon

To those who understand how rotas work, and what percentage of care is provided by a lone worker, that’s illogical Rosie51- and ignores the right of men who make up just under 50% of the caseload, to have a male carer. Doctors (over 50% of joiners are now female) can feasibly have chaperones because of the way they treat patients, but they do not provide care in the same way that nurses and carers do.

That doesn't address the point of why a male doctor can need a chaperone but not a carer. Why does the doctor need one?
The thinly veiled insult about understanding rotas is confusing. Are you saying that with only 18% of carers and 11% of nurses being male there are times when the whole rota comprises males? That wouldn't suggest thoughtful planning. I'm concerned with female preferences, if men want to have same sex care then they need to campaign for it, the same way women have had to fight for everything they want, often against male opposition.

Casdon

The question was not phrased in a way that referred only to women having the right to a same sex carer. Dignity issues are equally important to men, but people seem prepared to brush that aside.

Traditionally nursing and care work was predominantly staffed by women and men have been used to women providing personal care for them for a long time.

It is not such an issue as it is for women having personal care administered by men.

We have no male GPs at our surgery now; it would be a good thing if they employed a man but years ago all our GPs were male.
For intimate examinations a female nurse was in attendance at our GP surgery years ago because one GP had had complaints made that he was very rough, which I can confirm he was.
He left, thank goodness.

I don't think human rights extend to having every last thing we want! If we pay for our own care, I imagine there'd be a choice - so pay for it! Besides, I doubt whether the NHS staffing base would be able to offer that kind of personal choice. Personally, I've always been happy to get what I'm given when I need nursing help - the alternative (that is, going without entirely) isn't attractive!

To those who understand how rotas work, and what percentage of care is provided by a lone worker, that’s illogical Rosie51- and ignores the right of men who make up just under 50% of the caseload, to have a male carer. Doctors (over 50% of joiners are now female) can feasibly have chaperones because of the way they treat patients, but they do not provide care in the same way that nurses and carers do.