Nurses needing degrees

M0nica

Nursing is no longer just about caring. It is now a highly technical job. It is nurses operating and monitoring all those many machines and therapies that can be literally a matter of life and death for so many people.

I want to know that the people operating all those machines, administering those highly toxic drugs, know exactly what they are doing and these days the training they receive is at degree level so they should get the degree that goes with that high level of nursing.

Doctors are called 'doctors' because their training gives them the equivalent of a first degree and a doctorate. It follows that nurses - and paramedics should have a first degree.

From personal experience recently. I have far more confidence in the first degree trained nurses and paramedics than I do in the doctors.

Doctors do not have a doctorate, it is an honorary title. In the UK they graduate medical school with two bachelors degrees (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery).

ViceVersa

Daddima

David49

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

I agree that a nurse being qualified to degree level is a good thing, but I do think losing Enrolled Nurse training was a mistake. They used to do two years practical training, mostly on wards, so were extremely competent in ‘hands-on’ patient care.

They still do practical training as part of their degree. The degree course involves placements in hospitals or other settings appropriate to the particular nursing degree.

I know they do practical training, but certainly not as much as a State Enrolled Nurse would have done.
My friend’s daughter was in her third year of doing midwifery training, and told me she couldn’t begin to actually deliver a baby, but she was a dab hand at critiquing articles in medical journals!

I did a degree at University for my Mental Health Training.. Nurses work autonomously ,in the sense that they have personal legal responsibilty for their own decisions.
.I was often in charge of a 36 bed ward at night very often at night with very little on-call help.. and maybe 3 other staff on the ward.. Then when I became a CPN I had 30 clients on my case load.. I needed to be able to liaise with Social Workers, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, clients families in care plan meetings, Police, MH crisis teams, Hospital ward staff etc and keep all the notes up to date.. give injections and check that medication is being taken etc etc It is a very challenging work and certainly needs to be degree level with many other subsequent courses to upskill..

Lydie45

On the other side of the coin, my husband spent a lot of time in hospital. On one occasion an elderly man in the next bed was calling for a bedpan. He kept pressing his buzzer and calling out. Eventually I went to the nursing station and politely told them the man was getting very distressed. The nurse looked at me and said “I didn’t go to university to change bed pans, he will have to wait. When I got back to my husband the elderly man had tried to get out of bed and messed all over the floor. Another time a older nurse who had been dealing with quite complicated things with my husband said “she was retiring” we said that’s a shame as she was very good. She said “I’ve been told to continue doing what I’ve been doing for years I must get a degree so I’ve decided to retire” I know from experience you don’t need a degree to do complicated work. When I retired the person who replaced me had to have a degree to do work I had very successfully done for over 20 years without a degree.

The first nurse needs disciplining. Never, in any of the hospital stays/visits I've had over the last few years have I come across any nurse with that attitude. I've certainly never come across one who would be stupid enough to say that, even if that was what he'she thought. The hospital needs to get a grip on its staff, if that's how they talk to patients.

My granddaughter is in her second at university studying to be a paediatric nurse which she has been wanting to do since she was 3. A degree is a necessity now, nurses have a very responsible job. She and her parents have to fund this but she does work to fit in between shifts which she has been doing at a busy A&E department.

Maelil

The first degree that medical doctors receive is not the equivalent of a doctorate. That is a much higher degree and one that only a small % of doctors go in to attain.

There was a time when family doctors did not necessarily have an MB or MD. The LMSSA and other non degree qualifications were acceptable. That is not to say that medical training was much easier, as extensive pre-clinical and clinical study were undertaken as well as compulsory hospital placements.

Just as, I would imagine, the old SRN training was not just concerned with handing out pills, bedpans and bed-baths.

On the other side of the coin, my husband spent a lot of time in hospital. On one occasion an elderly man in the next bed was calling for a bedpan. He kept pressing his buzzer and calling out. Eventually I went to the nursing station and politely told them the man was getting very distressed. The nurse looked at me and said “I didn’t go to university to change bed pans, he will have to wait. When I got back to my husband the elderly man had tried to get out of bed and messed all over the floor. Another time a older nurse who had been dealing with quite complicated things with my husband said “she was retiring” we said that’s a shame as she was very good. She said “I’ve been told to continue doing what I’ve been doing for years I must get a degree so I’ve decided to retire” I know from experience you don’t need a degree to do complicated work. When I retired the person who replaced me had to have a degree to do work I had very successfully done for over 20 years without a degree.

Itt was a radiologist, (a doctor), who first looked at my xray and saw nothing.
The doctor, who called a few days later, informed me that they go back and review the xrays, just to make sure.

I have frequent stress fractures in my foot, they only usually show up on body scans, when I have dye injected, not xrays.
No system nor practitioner is infallible.

Marydoll

I fractured my foot, but it didn't show up initially on the xrays. However, a few days later, I received a call from a doctor, saying that he had been reviewing x rays taken in the last few days and there were two stress fractures in my foot.

It happens, even doctor's can make mistakes.

Exactly and when I broke a bone in my foot the nurse practitioner told me what she thought it was before the xray and the xray confirmed her judgement.

sazz1

Went to a walk in center for an injured ankle. The radiographer took 5 xrays then went home. It was Friday. Male nurse looked at the 5 x-rays said definitely no break and sent me home. Monday female nurse rang me, told me radiographer had seen the break and it was definitely broken. I asked why it hadn't been sent to the doctor for analysis. She said it had now and doctors often miss fractures too. Nurses doing doctors jobs.

One of my kids had an accident, ambulance attended and at handover the paramedic pointed to an area and said they thought there was a fracture there. X ray done, checked by A&E doctor and I was told child was making a fuss and just keep them walking. One week later I got a call to take t hem back as the Radiologist had identified a fracture. This was explained when we attended and doctor said it happens and they would make me an appointment for fracture clinic and until then keep them off their legs. I said no we were seeing someone in fracture clinic now. I was told it wasn't possible and I said fine I'm sitting here for a week then. Doctor went off and came back and said I was very lucky as one of the fracture clinic doctors was willing to see us. I replied that forcing my child to walk round on a broken leg for a week didn't feel very lucky to me.

Gold star to the paramedic who accurately diagnosed the problem without an xray. So I'd rely on the paramedic after an accident. A doctor I know agreed and said if he was in a car accident he'd rather be treated by a paramedic rather than the average doctor, obviously a specialist A&E doctor would be different.

Sorry, DOCTORS!

I fractured my foot, but it didn't show up initially on the xrays. However, a few days later, I received a call from a doctor, saying that he had been reviewing x rays taken in the last few days and there were two stress fractures in my foot.

It happens, even doctor's can make mistakes.

Went to a walk in center for an injured ankle. The radiographer took 5 xrays then went home. It was Friday. Male nurse looked at the 5 x-rays said definitely no break and sent me home. Monday female nurse rang me, told me radiographer had seen the break and it was definitely broken. I asked why it hadn't been sent to the doctor for analysis. She said it had now and doctors often miss fractures too. Nurses doing doctors jobs.

David49

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

Quite agree, same for medical students and other allied Professionals, then stay in NHS for five years. I was lucky enough after many years as SEN to do a conversion course. No time off though, working full time, and doing a two year degree, but it was paid for by trust, and was happy to stay in NHS.

faringdon59

Do nurses need to have a degree to be able to work these days?
I remember about the time I left school there were two qualifications: State registered, where you needed O level passes or SEN - state enrolled which was a more practical based route. And if they need to gain a degree should the NHS be funding this or should they take out a loan?

They do fund their own degrees. Long gone are the days when you were paid to train. Nowadays they expect you to work on the wards for free. Same as medical students.

Saw a senior nurse practitioner recently and she was so thorough, heard a crackle on my chest, antibiotics, chest X-ray sorted! Fantastic and friendly too always a bonus !!

Maelil

The first degree that medical doctors receive is not the equivalent of a doctorate. That is a much higher degree and one that only a small % of doctors go in to attain.

The title 'Doctor' dates back to the 18/19th century when a nascent doctor, first did a degree at Oxford or Cambridge and was then expected to travel to other universities and spend up to 12 years gaining the knowledge needed to practice as a doctor. Seen as the equivalent of obtaing a doctorate then.

This need for a training well beyond a first degree still applies to medical training and is why the title 'Doctor' has stayed . They do not have the modern definition of a Doctorate. Three years separate study on a specific research topic, but the title reflects to extensive training they undergo.

Indeed, AGAA4. My daughter is a nurse and has regularly been covered in every bodily fluid you can imagine. She is also assaulted by patients on a regular basis.

mabon1

My friend had been nursing for three decades. A degree nurse came on the ward, my friend asked her to do something to which the degree nurse replied "I'm a degree nurse I'm not doing that" my friend was gob-smacked

That nurse should not have been nursing. My DD and her friends, all degree nurses, just got stuck in to whatever needed doing when they worked on the wards.
My DD told me that she was cleaning up an elderly man who had made a terrible mess in his bed and trying to reassure him as he was upset. On the radio she could hear Kylie Minogue singing "I should be so lucky, lucky, lucky". She had a laugh about later. I just felt sick.

Harris27

Nurses at my doctors seem better informed than the doctors always treat mine with respect.

The nurse practitioner at my gp has a knowledge of menopause and its treatments which is far superior to any gp i have come across ..

knspol

I think it's great that nurses have to have a degree for senior or specialist work but I also think it shouldn't be for all of them. They still need the kind of nurses who will help patients with their more basic needs eg washing, toiletting, make them comfortable and generally chat to them and care for them.
My experience of visiting friends and family in hospital is that the nurses gather around a desk talking (not saying they aren't discussing work) and even when asked several times for some help to take a patient to the loo no help is forthcoming. The only such help my mother had in this respect was from a ward assistant who also gave up after asking nurses for help more than once.

The people doing these tasks do not need a degree though....the nhs can't afford to pay even the lowest band 5 nurse 32k plus enhancements to wash a patient, help feed them and take them to the toilet .....band 2 and 3s who are not nurses are employed to fulfil these roles

My friend had been nursing for three decades. A degree nurse came on the ward, my friend asked her to do something to which the degree nurse replied "I'm a degree nurse I'm not doing that" my friend was gob-smacked

Doctors see the big picture & should be able to tell if someone with a chronic condition develops symptoms that actually are unrelated to that condition, for eg.
Specialist nurses are top of their game in that field, very knowledgeable, very good at eg patient education & specialist interventions.Their concerns are generally narrower & they won't be liaising with colleagues in different specialties on a daily basis, for eg, as the consultants do.
Nurses still should not diagnose. Any more than pharmacists or physician assistants should. Under a doctor's supervision & with appropriate AI alogryths, some common things can be initiallty diagnosed & treated by these professionals, but it's only an extremely limited remit.
A new trainee nurse joining with A levels would take an unjustifiable amount of time from today's nursing specialists to get them up to being more use than liability. That's a strong argument for the basics to be done away from a busy ward, where nurses just don't have that time.

Yes

Nurses at my doctors seem better informed than the doctors always treat mine with respect.