Assisted dying bill

Galaxy

I suppose I would ask how you would justify the risks to those vulnerable to coercion.

Believe it or not I’m interested to hear a reasoned justification not just to exchange digs.

I couldn’t possibly justify any kind of coerosion. I wouldn’t ever try to justify it.. Nobody could. I’m 100% that there should be no coercion, that it should be provably the dying persons wish confirmed by as many disinterested people as anyone. would wish.

Coercion is a danger. A hypothetical as you said. Lengthy dying in agony is a reality that is happening now.

So there must be a justification for it, if we want it to continue.

I was answering someone way back. I clearly take too long thinking and typing.

Visgir1

I'm not sure it's going to sail through the HoL think they will stall it?

GP's do help folk on their way, but it's not publicised or talked about.

Yep...I think there is a degree of this that happens - it is a merciful sort of pathway that some doctors do decide, of themselves, to do.

Suicide is difficult unless you know what pills to take and how to get hold of them. I thought stacks of paracetomol, but no, that doesn’t always work and people are left in terrible pain.

Other options are too violent to specify here and these leave the families brokenhearted.

By allowing doctors to increase the dose of medication to alleviate the pain, with the patient's knowledge and consent that this would iultimately result in the loss of life.

I'm not sure it's going to sail through the HoL think they will stall it?

GP's do help folk on their way, but it's not publicised or talked about.

I suppose I would ask how you would justify the risks to those vulnerable to coercion.

I suppose I’d ask

If Assisted Dying was already the Law in this country, how would you justify a return to lengthy and painful death?

Galaxy

No I don't think that, I think your understanding of coercion is not the same as mine, we don't trust the safeguards and why would we? We have watched over the years safeguarding failure after safeguarding failure, we are in the middle of a nationwide safeguarding failure at the moment.

I don't think anyone should feel comfortable about coercion, if they do go and have a read of the hate and bile towards the elderly on Mumsnet and the worry about getting their hands on their inheritance while their parents are still alive.

Please, it is not about 'whatever' you call it- euthanasia and assisted dying are NOT the same, at all.

And yes, I can understand your argument, and I agree that palliative care should be vastly improved, totally. Many of my friends have died with the best care possible in our local amazing Hospice, in the UK. One more reason then for more of us to give generously to those Hospices, so they can continue that amazing care and increase the number of places available and suitable staff. This Bill will never stop us from supporting our local Hospices, or helping fund new ones- for those who make the choice to lenghten life by a few weeks or days. We can all choose to support them in any way we can.

Personally, I would prefer to go before I need this. MY choice. But total respect and support, for those who choose palliative care.

Lathyrus3

I suppose I just don’t understand why death has to be stretched out to days and days of unbearable agony.

What are the reasons for approving if that?

Would anyone explain their thinking\belief?

From what I know re this - I always thought my mother was Anglican and was surprised come the end to realise she was Anglo-Catholic actually.

In her case - she didn't want to continue with her life come the end. She had contracted pneumonia badly latterly and (with me being the other side of the country it was a phone conversation between me and the nurses). Cue for one of the nurses saying to me "She was taking the pills we gave her to start with and then she refused any more" and was obviously querying what I would think. My response was "If she wants them - then give them to her. If she doesn't want them - then don't give them to her. It's her decision either way". I think that was what the nurse wanted to know - ie whether I'd blame them for her not taking them.

I think she was a bit unclear in her thinking in some ways basically that surprised me - as she commented one time that she feels people who "make their own decisions to leave" will land up in "Hell". Hence me going "Mother - you're Anglican!" and it came out that nope she was more of a Catholic in the event. So yep...in her case - it was more Catholic type beliefs (as she interpreted them) that caused her to just "carry on".

I said nowt in any direction - except telling the people concerned at the end that every door and window in her house must be opened - as she had made that request - in the belief that she needed them to be open in order to get out through them to go "Home to Heaven". I knew she didn't need them open - but she'd asked - and so they were given that instruction by me.

So some peoples own religious beliefs cause them to "hang on" when someone who thinks primarily with logic would not do so. So the difference between my mother and I is her religious beliefs scared her into letting things "take their course". My absolute - logic first - way of thinking would be telling me "I'm outa here - put the virtual champagne in Heaven on ice. I'll be there to drink it shortly at my welcome Home party".

Some care is poor, but there is agony and distress that no care can alleviate. It just has to be borne till the body gives up.

I do feel aggrieved that those who are opposed to the bill suggest that better care would eliminate that.

It can’t. So again. What is gained by compelling people to die in agony that lasts every hour for days. Those who oppose the Bill don’t seem to be able to explain.

They just sidestep.

Macadia

If someone doesn't want to live, they should be allowed to peacefully end their life. Nobody else's business.

Well suicide isn't illegal so they have that option, without using up time of legal professionals and doctors. Nobody else's business is exactly right.

Luckygirl3 if The Lords pass this, there will be no incentive to improve palliative or end of life care.

State sponsored euthanasia, assisted suicide, murder by the state, whatever you choose to call it, will be cheaper for the NHS

Context is what is important.

More MPs might have voted against if it had been in the context of good care for the terminally ill available free to everyone.

As it is terminal care is the poor relation in the NHS and there are no NHS facilities for proper care of the dying - none at all. There are hospices that receive a bit of financial help from the government, but essentially terminal care has been farmed out to the voluntary sector who live hand to mouth on fundraising.

It troubles me that one of the major factors in voting decisions is about poor care.

Lathyrus3

I suppose I just don’t understand why death has to be stretched out to days and days of unbearable agony.

What are the reasons for approving if that?

Would anyone explain their thinking\belief?

Yes, I find this so bizarre too. Why. Why could you be prosecuted for letting a pet suffer at the end?

Personally, if I was so scared of the medical staff, so distrusting of their care and intentions- I certainly would not wish to remain in their wicked and uncaring hands for a day longer- believing they are not at all interested in making my demise more gentle and painfree! Not ask for more!

Claremont

BTW, in the olden days, not so long ago, doctors could help humanely, on request, to shorten end stage. Since Shipman, that is totally .gone

Indeed - if only Shipman hadn't ever been on the scene and the fact he was did SO much damage all round.

Yep...another one here that is glad this bill has been passed. In my own case - the relief/gladness is for other people that require this. From my own personal pov - it makes absolutely no difference to me- as I know exactly how to "exit stage Earth" if I ever needed to and within the hour. That is a reassurance to me - should I ever need it - but I am glad other people will also have this choice too in case they ever needed it. It is inhumane the way that people have been kept in such pain etc for so long - when they are in that position.

So - my congratulations to the MP that brought this through.

This is NOT about the disabled! Should those who know they’re dying and want as peaceful a death as possible be denied? So glad this went through.

I suppose I just don’t understand why death has to be stretched out to days and days of unbearable agony.

What are the reasons for approving if that?

Would anyone explain their thinking\belief?

Galaxy I agree.

No I don't think that, I think your understanding of coercion is not the same as mine, we don't trust the safeguards and why would we? We have watched over the years safeguarding failure after safeguarding failure, we are in the middle of a nationwide safeguarding failure at the moment.

I'm relieved, I was worried it wouldn't go through.

GrannyGravy13

Galaxy

I am so sorry Blossoming, the voices of those with disabilities are frequently ignored. Lots of us did try to fight against it.

Many disabled charities are totally against this bill, their voices and concerns have been ignored.

Nothing to do with disability, but terminal illness.

GrannyGravy13

Claremont if only we all had your blind faith in the UK’s NHS…

The Law will have to be apllied. Are you really telling me that they would fake a formal application, fake the opinion of two doctors, and fake the request- and force the patient to take the potion.

Nothing to do with blind faith.

I think the bill now goes to the House of Lords. The vast majority of people around 80% have wanted this for decades and I am one of them.
It has been voted down many times in the past but gradually opinion has thankfully changed at last.
Like so many other countries we should be able to choose for ourselves without spending thousands to go to Switzerland with all that entails. I agree coercion is something to consider, but think it Woukd be rare and should be always kept uppermost in the minds of those responsible for agreeing to the request. As for medics being forced to carry this out, that will not be the case and anyone can opt out. Maybe this will encourage more hospices and end life care to increase so more patients can benefit but in reality this probably won’t happen.
I am happy and relieved that at last this stands a good chance of becoming law.