::POA's - do we really need them?

No. I didn't mean do it without consent Basgetti.
That would be foolish - but if they won't do it when you say you want it done I'd definitely ask someone else you trust!

NotSpaghetti

No. I didn't mean do it without consent Basgetti.
That would be foolish - but if they won't do it when you say you want it done I'd definitely ask someone else you trust!

Fair enough. My comment was in light of OP saying her daughters didn’t believe it necessary. Reading between the lines, that suggests they’re not keen to take on the responsibility. Depending on an individual’s affairs, it can be a pretty onerous task.

Maybe show them this thread?

Without a POA you could end up in the position of my IL’s, which is basically that the state takes over your affairs. No one wants that!

It was 35 years ago for my IL’s and POA weren’t a common thing then. Basically, FIL developed dementia and went into a home. A solicitor was appointed by the state and everything financial had to be run past him. So MIL was given a minimal amount to live on and had to apply for funds to eg repair the boiler. Each time, it involved lawyers letters back and forth which each carried a charge and over the course of three years, my MIL had to pay thousands and thousands of pounds to the state. It was very distressing for her, and indeed for us all, as we tried to help out financially.

Just do it, then you never have to think about it again!

It does seem that the advice you are getting here, Franbern, is Just Do It! I would add my vote for that too. My sister and I had POA for my parents and when my widowed mopther eventually decide that she couldn't feel confident in dealing with financial matters, we took over easily by arrangement with the bank. Later on, she developed dementia and was no longer capable of of staying at home, and we could take the responsibility of finding somewhere suitable for her to live.

DH and I have POA arranged in favour of each other and then our children. We did it in our 60s, and it's a relief to know that it is there.

DH and I have both medical and financial POAs, same as Wheniwasyourage.

I discovered during the pandemic, a DNR had been put on my record, without my consent. 🤬
With a medical POA, DH can fight my corner if necessary.

When I became too unwell to work and deal with my affairs, DH took charge, because he could legally do so. It took an enormous burden from my shoulders.

The financial POA willl make life easier for our children, our son shares the same financial advisor and he agreed that the POA will make dealing with our affairs, so much simpler.

My mother had no POA, she lost capacity overnight and left me with a nightmare.

I didn’t even have a legal right to enter her home.

It took me nearly a year to get guardianship and cost a lot more than the £95 POA visa a the government.

In the meantime her house was haemorrhaging money and I was sick with worry, I shaving panic attacks as due to a mix up with Adult Services I was getting demands for 10’s of thousands of pounds.

A POA is essential, your daughters are wrong!

Hi my mum wouldn’t have POA. But we had a joint bank account, and she lived in sheltered housing so the money side of things were no problem.
When she needed to go into a care home from hospital, the social worker made the final decision, I wasn’t able to which in fact was a godsend. So in our case no POA worked well.

AGAA4

Bank accounts are frozen when a person dies to prevent fraudulent access.
That means no direct debits would be paid.

The POA is NOT for after you die, it is if you become incapacitated either physically or mentally, it is automatically dissolved when you die. There are two POA available one is to do with health and one with finances. They not automatically done together unless you indicate.
We ( my sister and I) had the finance one when my mother became ill so that we could take over the selling of her home and could look after her finances while she was in a care home.

For me the question is - why does a PoA have to be done “officially”? Why can one not just write out a similar document that sets out permission and wishes, sign and date it and have it witnessed and kept safely for when it is needed? I don’t understand why the Government has to be involved. It feels like yet another money making scheme …

I have both POW s did them a couple of years ago £85 ish each online I believe they ve gone up a weeny bit
Well worth it my eldest is the only one living in UK so she is my decider if I do lose capacity to make decisions
Why try to cut corners it’s not a lot of money in the long run

My mil had a stroke and was in a coma for 11 months. Once transferred to a care home we had to find the money to pay. With no POA we couldn’t sell her house to fund her care and it was all very stressful.

With banking online now, I guess your thinking is that your daughters could keep things ticking over without any fuss because they would know your passwords etc.

I can see that. My word of caution is that a POA would protect them from any possible security suspicion of having taken action without your consent or if by any chance a disagreement arise between them.

I have twice been involved with handling the affairs of people, whose financial affairs were in impeccable order and who saw no need for POAs and I can assure you, if you have a stroke, or a heart attack and are unable to manage your own affairs, trying to handle somebody elses affairs without a POA is almost impossible.

In one case I had to pay care fees for 2 people for three months from my own resources because we could not access their bank accounts because they were incapacitated and we had no POA. Luckily I had the resources to do so, what would have happened otherwise, I do not know.

In another case it was a relation with very deep depression who would do nothing.

In each case, thank goodness, we managed, eventually, with the help of a solicitor, to concoct POA's on the basis that the incapacitated people had moments of lucidity when they had agreed to everything, but just how legal these consents were, would not have stood up to examination.

If your family need to seek a POA after you are incapacitated then they need to go through the Court of Protection and this severely limits their ability to act on your behalf. I worked, professionally with a family with two people with POAs. The husband had given his wife a POA before hs dementa became severe. Thier brain damaged son had a POA through the Court of Protection. If a carer was needed for the husband, his wife went out and booked one. If the son needed a carer it had to go through the Court of Protection and could take three or four months or more to arrange.

Personally I think any older person who doesn't have a POA, where it is possible, is guilty of (adult) child abuse (the POA is usually a child of grantor of the POA).

Franbern, POA is important and essential. You obviously have two amazing daughters who you trust. However, if you were to become incapacitated without a POA in place they have no legal right to access your accounts, or decide what should happen if you become very ill. Knowing where your passwords are kept does not give them the authority to access you accounts. If they did they are at risk of being accused of theft / fraud!!
Please show your daughters
this thread . It is much cheaper online , although we used solicitor - its a personal choice. I pushed for it when my husband was showing signs of dementia- he has since been diagnosed with Alzheimers Disease. Our children are replacement attorneys. Already I have been able to speak to out GP about my husbands condition. POA will allow me to make decisions about my husbands future. If anything happens to me and I am no longer able to be rational then our children step in. Like you we have trustworthy children who all get on well together.

We think POAs essential.

If not POA, perhaps allow your daughters on your accounts?

Retread

For me the question is - why does a PoA have to be done “officially”? Why can one not just write out a similar document that sets out permission and wishes, sign and date it and have it witnessed and kept safely for when it is needed? I don’t understand why the Government has to be involved. It feels like yet another money making scheme …

Because anyone can fake a document.

POA conveys huge power, can be literally life and death.

It has to be registered at the Office of the Public Guardian as official proof it's genuine, when it was made, by whom, to whom etc.

Official proof of house purchase is recorded at the Land Registry; and birth, marriage and death are recorded at the General records Office ( E and W) .

I had POA for my mum but didn’t have to activate it. She was admitted to hospital age 87 very poorly with pneumonia and other issues . I was never asked if I had POA and they liaised with me , I knew her wishes for no invasive treatment and told the medical team and her wishes were respected . She ended up in kidney failure and they said she could be taken to ICU, ventilated and put on dialysis. I knew she didn’t want this as we had discussed it and they accepted it and she passed away peacefully. The doctor did say it was lovely that we had discussed it and medically it was the best decision for her .
When my husband had a stroke at 63 he ended up on life support, we had not done POA for each other . As next of kin I was fully informed and involved with his treatment decisions, sadly he did not survive as we had to withdraw life support.
In my experience in two different hospitals POA was never mentioned and not really necessary in our circumstances.

POA's are essentially if you are going to need to manage the daily affairs of someone, from paying household bills to, if necessary, selling a house and clearing it or ending a tenancy.

We do not know in advance when or where or in what circumstances we may become incapacitated. and while it is fine when doctors and family are in agreement about what happens to someone. What if the doctors had not agreed with your requests tulipsfromamsterdam. Without a POA they can just ignore you and do what they think best, which may well be not what you or your mother wanted.

POA is like insurance. You hope you never need it but when you do it is invaluable.

We've done POAs and Wills ourselves. Our situation is much like yours Franbern in that our children can be trusted with our online accounts etc.
But we know that it is not as easy as that through experience with our parents. The red tape is so much easier to get through with legal documents in place and lodged with the proper authorities.

I found that having the POA for my Grandmother was very helpful while I cared for her the last year of her life.

Witzend

If you fill out the forms yourself, which is really not difficult, though it does need care, it doesn’t cost all that much.

Personally I think Ps of A are essential. What if you had e.g. a stroke and were unable to speak for yourself, let alone act for yourself? Or were taken seriously ill in any other way, or were involved in a serious accident?

If you have no P of A in such circs, it’s a major headache for relatives, and the Court of Protection would need to be involved, which AFAIK costs considerably more and can take ages to set up.

Indeed, it's approximately £100 to do it yourself, and if it's not done correctly the Office of the Public Guardian sends it back until it is ...

Personally I think the Financial one is important, the medical one not so much as doctors are overriding them anyway. You can do a Treatment Escalation Plan with your GP to say what your wishes are should you end up in hospital, and that is obviously free!

Retread

For me the question is - why does a PoA have to be done “officially”? Why can one not just write out a similar document that sets out permission and wishes, sign and date it and have it witnessed and kept safely for when it is needed? I don’t understand why the Government has to be involved. It feels like yet another money making scheme …

It won’t necessarily be recognised by relevant institutions as being a genuine statement. My brother has an official POA for our mother and even with a POA it’s been onerous for him to sell her house, do minor things like her post being redirected, and so many other things.

The banks and officialdom in general is very, very cautious, in our experience, and if there is any doubt they won’t accept a mere letter.

Thank you for all your replies, which is pretty unanimous. I am with both these daughters this coming weekend and will raise this matter, again, with them.
I know it is not a matter of them not wanting the responsibility as they both accept that they will be the main ones involved in sorting out my affairs when I die. The one who lives near to me would have the responsibility of getting my flat on the market, etc.

I think that they feel that these forms are just another way of getting money off people, they and I are in total agreement as to how I would like to be treated if I was seriously ill - I do have an Advance Declaration in place, also. My funeral is all arranged and paid for.

I will try to get them to agree to at least the financial one being put in place. As I am in receipt of Pension Credit, I cn show them that I will only pay very little towards the registration of this. Once they agree to that, then afterwards I will go for the health one.

I did both POAs a few years ago but there was a small mistake in one, someone wrote her address in one place but missed it in another. It was returned to me and I would not repeat the long complicated process so it was not registered.
I don’t think this matters, it tells my family what I intended.