Vegan/Plant based.

You do seem to think the worst of vegans Monica. The vegans I know really don’t see animals as cuddly v. not cuddly. They tend to see them all as sentient beings who are not ours to use.

vegansrock

But if the land given over to growing feed for animals was used for food for human consumption then there wouldn’t be the need for a great deal of increased land use. When you compare land use/ water use for meat and dairy production to any arable crop then the meat/ dairy is many times greater in its use of resources.

There would be more need for fertilisers and water for ground crops. As has already been mentioned, some of the ground that supports animal farming both here and elsewhere would not be suitable for arable crops, hence more land would be needed to supplement that loss of food production.

Vegans are welcome to eat plant foods, mock omnivore foods, UPF foods or whatever foods they prefer, giving whatever reasons they choose for their preference.

Being vegan seems a bit like the lectures currently coming from another group, on a totally different subject who want what they decide, to be accepted by everyone else.
I’ve yet to read anyone on GN insisting on an omnivore diet.

nightowl

You do seem to think the worst of vegans Monica. The vegans I know really don’t see animals as cuddly v. not cuddly. They tend to see them all as sentient beings who are not ours to use.

But many of them do use animals nghtowl.

Every vegan and vegetarian I know has a pet. Some have several. They seem to think that is different.

It’s another of those mantras that get chanted like ‘better for the planet’ or ‘a healthier diet” that sound good but haven’t been subject to evidence or consideration as to whether they are true. And aren’t open to discussion. Any information that doesn’t fit the mantra is just ignored. No debate.

As Mollygo says very reminiscent of other topics

nightowl

You do seem to think the worst of vegans Monica. The vegans I know really don’t see animals as cuddly v. not cuddly. They tend to see them all as sentient beings who are not ours to use.

No, I have no objections to what any one does or does not eat - until they start occupying the high moral ground or making what they see as rational and reasonable claims that do not stand up to examination.

If someone just says. I choose not to consume certain foods because that is not my wish, that's fine, , We all make decisions for emotional or irrational reasons and we must respect that. But once they start saying 'because' one looks at the 'because' and thinks about it

You make a statement about ^sentient animals that are not ours to use'. I can see no justification for that statement in empirical terms, since from start to finish organic life is prey and predator.

If you had said 'I choose not to eat sentient animals' that is a personal choice, I would not query it - except, where exactly is the line between sentient and not sentient? Is a wasp sentient? What about sentient animals that are, unintended casualties, wild life whose habitat is destroyed to grow crop, or in the growing of crops. This dividing line between what is and is not acceptable to vegans is something that has always interested me, but I never get an answer.

M0nica
If you had said 'I choose not to eat sentient animals' that is a personal choice, I would not query it - except, where exactly is the line between sentient and not sentient? Is a wasp sentient? What about sentient animals that are, unintended casualties, wild life whose habitat is destroyed to grow crop, or in the growing of crops. This dividing line between what is and is not acceptable to vegans is something that has always interested me, but I never get an answer. Well put.
I suspect the reason you never get an answer is because there is no food which does not involve killing except possibly those foods chemically produced.
I do have limits-foie gras for example. I would also not buy my chickens from our local French market, to kill and pluck myself. Though I’m not sure if that’s the work involved rather than thinking about the chicken as a sentient being.

How do you know there is a Vegan in the room?

They will tell you !

As we see in this thread they see it their duty to belittle others and convert them to their opinions, in the same way religious extremists do.

I'm glad it works for you OP. A family member of mine was vegan for three years and forced to give it up. It was having a negative impact on their health. They're doing so much better now.

I knew this would turn into a pile on against vegans who are obviously seen as some unified group of mentally suspect idiots . Cheerio.

This has not been a pile on, on Vegans. It is just the claims made by some of them have been put under scrutiny.

M0nica

This has not been a pile on, on Vegans. It is just the claims made by some of them have been put under scrutiny.

But a pile on is always claimed by people whose views are disproven or questioned. vegansrock describing vegans as a unified group of mentally suspect idiots is something I’ve only ever heard a vegan do, but . . .

M0nica

This has not been a pile on, on Vegans. It is just the claims made by some of them have been put under scrutiny.

Yes, exactly. I think people have been very measured in their responses, in the main.

I wish one person could tell me what a Welsh hill farmer is supposed to farm if s/he gave up farming sheep? There's always deadly silence on that one, and the question of the horror of more synthetic materials replacing wool and leather, increasing the microplastics in the environment.

vegansrock

I knew this would turn into a pile on against vegans who are obviously seen as some unified group of mentally suspect idiots . Cheerio.

Absolutely vegansrock, they, the others, omnivores or meat eaters are absolutely determined not to listen but to go on arguing against whatever any vegan says. Exactly what they accuse vegans of doing. I imagine it's what the Inquisition did with people who believed 'otherwise'.

eg.: David49 "As we see in this thread they see it their duty to belittle others and convert them to their opinions, in the same way religious extremists do."

Who, exactly amongst the vegan responders has belittled anyone? Or tried to convert anyone? On the contrary, the attackers have twisted and turned in order to think of every single opposition they can to those who have been brave enough to enter the fray.

From what I can see (and I am AMAZED that this thread is still going) you meaty people are intolerant and unable to accept that others are different. You will disagree of course, but for instance, up pops a taunt about vegans keeping pet animals and not noticing that this might be 'using' animals' but thinking it's ok because they (vegans) can distinguish between fluffy and non-fluffy animals.

Meat eaters/ominivores pride themselves on having pets but they will equivocate of course, not eating foie gras or chicken or tuna and that's perfectly ok but vegans must be pure in word and deed.

Let's just consider for a moment that phrase Auschwitz begins whenever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and thinks: they're only animals". Theodore Adorno points out how cruelty to humans is enabled when perpetrators view victims as less than human, comparing it to the societal justification used to dismiss the suffering of animals.

I pointed out earlier the connection, validated by research, between violence in society and insensitivy towards animals. The RSPCA did the earliest research on this and look at what happens in the world of illegal fox hunting, badger baiting, hare coursing, domestic violence amongst humans. It is often the case that an abusive husband will also abuse his partner's pets and many women stay in abusive relationships for the sake of their pet animals.

You all side-stepped this, it's easier to batter on at the vegans who you can isolate as a group (YOUR OPINION NOT REALITY) rather than think about these connections because it's happening all around while you tuck into your Sunday roast!

Rosie51

I wish one person could tell me what a Welsh hill farmer is supposed to farm if s/he gave up farming sheep? There's always deadly silence on that one, and the question of the horror of more synthetic materials replacing wool and leather, increasing the microplastics in the environment.

Rosie, hill farmers are more likely to be driven out of farming sheep as a result of climate change and market forces. Your post is a really good example, of red herring after red herring. It's stuff the tabloids publish in order to rack up fevered, biassed opinion, it sells newspapers.

In fact, my daughter is one of a number of students doing PhD studies funded by the National Trust and Defra to look at upland farming and to assist farmers to recognise that the climate is changing, the world is changing and they must change too including perhaps not farming sheep.

Who's doing the stereotyping and battering now Granatlast007? And shouting doesn't make your point more valid.

Are you seriously trying to link being omnivore (I don't believe there are many, if any, exclusively meat eaters) with being liable to be an abusive human to animals and other humans? Do you honestly believe vegans and vegetarians are exempt from abusive behaviour? Charles Manson observed a vegetarian diet at times. Perhaps he only committed atrocities when he was partaking of meat?

I have seriously looked into points made by vegans on this thread and responded to what I have found, sometimes agreeing and sometimes pointing out that the formation is partial or can be factually questioned.

There has been little response to the information I have given, questioned it or even, as far as I can tell, considered it any way. It has simpky been ignored and another unorivenna tea chanted once again.

So I think the evidence for * ‘absolutely determined not to listen” * can be clearly seen to apply almost solely to the vegans on this thread.

Why not report the “pile on”.

Red herrings? You mean like people that eat meat are abusers in other areas?

mantra

It is not a “taunt” to say keeping pets is using animals to meet a human need

It is a fact.

How do you justify it?

Any hope of an answer?

Actually thinking about it (whilst peeling the carrots) an resort to emotional tirades and accusations are just a tactic for avoiding serious discussion.

It tells me valid questions about espousing veganism have been raised.

Rosie51

Who's doing the stereotyping and battering now Granatlast007? And shouting doesn't make your point more valid.

Are you seriously trying to link being omnivore (I don't believe there are many, if any, exclusively meat eaters) with being liable to be an abusive human to animals and other humans? Do you honestly believe vegans and vegetarians are exempt from abusive behaviour? Charles Manson observed a vegetarian diet at times. Perhaps he only committed atrocities when he was partaking of meat?

Quite simply Rosie yes but why should I waste my valuable time finding the research to 'prove' to you something that is a known fact which you'll deny anyway. Try googling.

And the reason people shout as you call it is because they don't like being attacked. Try being reasonable.

Lathyrus3

Actually thinking about it (whilst peeling the carrots) an resort to emotional tirades and accusations are just a tactic for avoiding serious discussion.

It tells me valid questions about espousing veganism have been raised.

Holding a mirror up to you!!

What a pity. It had been an interesting and informative thread up till now and had promoted me to look into all kinds of of information about the symbiotic relationships of the plant and animal worlds ( not forgetting the crucial fungi).

Now it’s just about hurling personal insults 🙄

Lathyrus3

It is not a “taunt” to say keeping pets is using animals to meet a human need

It is a fact.

How do you justify it?

Any hope of an answer?

I cannot answer for every vegan in the world or even in the UK which is what you are demanding.
The rescue centres of the UK are bulging with animals which have been acquired, who knows by whom or what their dietary preferences were but they got rid of those animals for some reason.
Chances are, they have been adopted by people who feel sensitive towards animals and feel that they should do something to ease their suffering, oh gosh, that's what most vegans would say.
Since you ask for an answer, may I suggest that a vegan would be less likely to want to use an animal for cuddling or whatever you call a human need (exactly what did you mean by that, do tell me) but actually because they want the animal to have a reasonable life.
I used to work in a rescue centre and thank goodness, those wishing to adopt are examined for their interest in the animal and their understanding of what an animal might need. Vegans are likely to respect an animal, get it? I daresay not and another tiresome question which you feel isn't answered will arise.

Lathyrus3

mantra

Here's that mirror again!