Vegan/Plant based.

Would a philosophy that “animals are not ours to own” also preclude the keeping of annals as pets as well as objects to view?

I wish some of the pro vegans on this thread would actually be prepared to engage in discussion. But as MOnica observed it doesn’t happen. Just this is this and no discussion.

No debate.

That’s the phrase I was looking for.

I haven't come in to join in the “debate” aka pile on because I don't want to be accused of “ taking the moral high ground” or “ pushing a lifestyle down anyone's throats”. My philosophy stems from witnessing animal cruelty as a child and deciding I couldn't eat the body on my plate. Luckily my parents were kindly and, though they didn't understand, didn't force me to eat anything I didn't want to. I think they thought I’d forget about but I never have. I believe we should do the least harm possible. No one is pretending to be perfect. I know that in modern society it is impossible to shun all animal products, but its fairly straightforward for adults to avoid eating them. I know most people eat meat because they are used to it and like it, and don’t give a second thought to how it has been produced. I’m just not one of them. I do believe people and the planet would be better off / healthier eating less industrially produced meat and I would hope we would gradually move towards that position.

Oh please, I haven't had a chance to look back at this thread until now. I am NOT claiming to be better, people ask about veganism and I gave a post about my beliefs. If talking about respect for life of all life forms, including us animals, is a problem, then it would be good to ask yourself why this bothers you. I don't try to convert people, I don't say anything about their meat eating unless they bring up MY style of eating.

Who can condone cruelty? Is a short, miserable life better than no life at all? There is a current campaign I have seen by various quite respectable charities to stop the killing of pigs by C02 gas. I gather the pigs scream and gasp for air in their death throes. It's a big campaign I've seen in various places and I wish I hadn't seen it but should it be kept a secret? Is it ok to kill regardless 'because they're going to die anyway' as some people say.

Back to violence and its acceptability or not in a civilised society. I don't condemn or question anyone about what they eat, as I said we all make journeys in our life in what we believe in, what we think is fair and reasonable. I would like to be treated with respect too for what I have come to believe.

Lathyrus3

Would a philosophy that “animals are not ours to own” also preclude the keeping of annals as pets as well as objects to view?

I wish some of the pro vegans on this thread would actually be prepared to engage in discussion. But as MOnica observed it doesn’t happen. Just this is this and no discussion.

As I said, first chance to look back at this thread and comment. Plenty of people eat with forethought, I've met people who don't eat tuna because the capture of it kills dolphins. Other people won't eat fish because of overfishing in the oceans. Some people eat only organic, free range beef or chicken and so on. It's all part of a spectrum but of course, I don't represent a vegan movement, I just try to live in peace and sometimes on GN, even that is threatened!

I like to think I eat with forethought. There are products and methods that I avoid because I believe them to be harmful to the natural world.

But I can’t help noticing the avoidance of discussion or the answering of difficult questions and just the reiteration of a fixed viewpoint, that just avoids anything that might be challenging.

I do approach things from a factual rather than an emotional stance. So debate and exploration of fact is important to me in making my decisions.

I don’t really do half in/ half out either.
So a belief that we don’t own animals for our benefit to me would have to include pets.

Lathyrus3 and renaming them 'companion animals' doesn't change the fact that pets of any description are kept primarily for our pleasure and benefit. They are bred to keep up with demand and wouldn't exist if the demand wasn't there. It is odd that some pet owners are perfectly happy to have other farmed animals used as pet food but not human food. That seems a massive disconnect to me.

There are issues with the processing of wool and leather (and indeed cotton, linen and cellulose fibres) but at least they're not constantly shedding microplastics into our seas and waterways, which is an ever growing problem.

Didn’t read any comments on here till now because am not vegan so assumed it was aimed at other vegans. We don’t eat red meat and only a little chicken and fish, quite a lot of the time we eat plant based food because we actually like it and believe it is healthier. Our DDs are also vegetarian but not vegan, however their children eat meat at nursery because they believe it is for the child to decide what they want to eat when they are old enough to do so.
Seems that there is a bit of an argy bargy going on about veganism which I don’t really understand, I think people have a right to an opinion about what they eat, vegans as well as meat eaters, and I don’t think vegans are trying to cause ructions, they stick by their principles as animal lovers by refusing to eat them or any product made from them. Makes sense to me.

I am half-in half-out, I'm afraid.

I have been a vegan in the 1980s and vegetarian before that and since then...
My compromise since the 90s has been to only buy organic dairy products and eggs.
I know this is not perfect but it is the compromise I can currently live with.

I think M0nica buys organic meat - but eats less of it.

I wish everyone thought about what they were eating a bit more - and little by little I think things would shift.

Sorry, that was in response to Lathyrus3

Some staunch vegans believe we shouldn't keep animals as pets.
Sterilising them, "training" them to suit our agendas, dressing them up, deciding when and where they'll eat.

8NotSpaghetti* you are essentially right. The meat I eat is one step ahead of organic as the animals are pasture fed from birth to death.

More generally I go back the earliest life on earth where organic life kept going and evolved because it ate other organisms. All life is a ladder of predation and every living organism from one cell microbes to hominids is both a predator and prey and nothing has changed since that time.

Since we have to accept that anything we eat is a living organism, so every mouthful kills something, where any individual chooses to draw an arbitrary lineof what theywill and won't eat, it is just that, an arbitary line - and that applies to me as to anyone else.

The thing that distinguishes hominids from other primates is that they have omniverous digestion systems that can digest any kind of food: both animal and vegetable and the reason they developed as a separate species is because they discovered that cooked meat was nicer to eat and more digestable than raw meat.

Once they could cook meat and did so, this enabled hominids to develop larger and more developed brains and evolve to be the species we are today. But we are still part of that predator/prey continuum of organic life, so where any individual decides to draw a line and decide that they will or will not eat is usually driven more by emotion than rational thought, again I include myself.

This is why I find it really irritating when some people with the more extreme restrictions on their eating seem to think that that makes them more virtuous than people who eat a wider range of foods and gives them a right to criticise and hector all those who do not share the restrictions they have chosen to impose upon themselves.

And for those getting ready to ask what predators do humans face, well it is the completion of the cycle, our predators are the smallest organisms: COVID, Ebola, flu, sepsis etc etc.

I don’t think I meant that kind of half in/half out Notspaghetti. A considered decision on individual matters and acting on that is 100% ok, I think.

It’s the holding of a principle that someone is then prepared to bend or abandon to suit themselves, whilst still holding it firmly for others.
As in “we should not use animals for our own purposes but I will have pets.”

I just don’t understand how they reconcile the two stances other than a belief in their own special status. Not just vegans, anyone really who espouses one thing morally and then makes exceptions for themselves.

Gosh Monica I wish I’d written that.

So much more well expressed and logical than my rather feeble posts about a “natural cycle”.

Thank you.

I’m not telling anyone else what they should do. I’ve got my reasons for preferring a plant based diet , plenty of my friends and family eat meat , though some are vegans or vegetarian- we do have choices. I do think industrial meat and dairy production is inherently cruel. Humans eat far more meat and processed food than in the past, which perhaps is not the best choice from both a health and environmental viewpoint - that’s my opinion.

Vegan diets derive a larger percentage of their daily energy from UPFs, compared to vegetarians and a much higher percentage than regular meat-eaters.

As in “we should not use animals for our own purposes but I will have pets."
Incomplete " and I will mutilate then as I wish to make them easier to live with" should be added

Mollygo

Vegan diets derive a larger percentage of their daily energy from UPFs, compared to vegetarians and a much higher percentage than regular meat-eaters.

Interesting.

You believe Vegans derive a larger percentage of their daily energy from UPFs, than vegetarians and meat-eaters? What is your source?

We're Vegan, eat minimal UPFs. I cook from scratch, bake our bread. No crisps, ready meals, fizzy drinks, ham, sausage, ready made pizza.

I don't care what anyone, apart from my family eat - just curious.

Norah I have read a number of research reports reporting how vegans eat, and many do as you do and cook fresh food from scratch, but there is a group of mainly younger lifestyle vegans who would not cook, whether they were vegan or not who, and do eat a lot of highly processed foods, especially those processed to look and taste like meat,

Most vegans don’t agree with having pets but many care for rescue animals of various species. They most certainly would not mutilate them to make them easier to live with. That doesn’t make sense.

M0nica

Norah I have read a number of research reports reporting how vegans eat, and many do as you do and cook fresh food from scratch, but there is a group of mainly younger lifestyle vegans who would not cook, whether they were vegan or not who, and do eat a lot of highly processed foods, especially those processed to look and taste like meat,

That’s what I found too.
Source? Research on the internet.

I expect many vegans do cook from scratch, but many evidently want vegan foods which are quicker to prepare, or look like meat products. Many vegan staples like fortified plant milks, tofu are UPF-not always described as unhealthy, but UPF nevertheless.

Mollygo

M0nica

Norah I have read a number of research reports reporting how vegans eat, and many do as you do and cook fresh food from scratch, but there is a group of mainly younger lifestyle vegans who would not cook, whether they were vegan or not who, and do eat a lot of highly processed foods, especially those processed to look and taste like meat,

That’s what I found too.
Source? Research on the internet.

I expect many vegans do cook from scratch, but many evidently want vegan foods which are quicker to prepare, or look like meat products. Many vegan staples like fortified plant milks, tofu are UPF-not always described as unhealthy, but UPF nevertheless.

You are correct. Tofu is processed, not UPF, but processed.

Tins of Tomatoes must be processed. I use tinned tomatoes.

Thanks for answering.

nightowl

Most vegans don’t agree with having pets but many care for rescue animals of various species. They most certainly would not mutilate them to make them easier to live with. That doesn’t make sense.

Hmm, not sure about that. All the vegans I know have pets and have had them neutered, so I'm not sure what that says?

nightowl

Most vegans don’t agree with having pets but many care for rescue animals of various species. They most certainly would not mutilate them to make them easier to live with. That doesn’t make sense.

So vegans dont castrate or spey pets, are you sure.?