Vegan/Plant based.

But what’s the philosophy behind a vegan having a pet that kills and eats other animals.

Or conversely a pet that eats meat naturally but is prevented from doing so by a human.

I don’t think vegans can justify having pets under either of those circumstances.

“Think of the animals” The dead prey or the the deprived pet?

I was wonder how far the belief goes or whether (like for most of us) it falters on the rock of what we want to suit us?

Don't most people just pick and choose what suits them from any kind of 'belief system'?

Yes. For years I’ve watched people adapt belief systems to suit themselves personally whilst still holding onto them firmly for everybody else. And even workng passionately to ensure the spread and upholding of beliefs that they themselves say de step.

It’s been a source of endless wonder. Very rarely will people accept that there may be personal sacrifice in adhering to belief. They are much more likely to argue why their case is different.

sidestep

I do not think anyone accepts every belief of any belief system, much as if you belong to a political party, you do not necessarily accept every single statement and policy of the party, but are in sympathy with its aims and philosophy

I think there are very few people who live exactly to the tenets if a faith. We all find ourselves able to accepts some and not others.

What I mean is the dichotomy of personally holding a belief that “humans should not use animals for their own purposes” and then using animals to fulfil a personal need, such as having a pet.

If you take the conscious decision to live in contradiction of a held belief then you don’t really believe it do you?

Not meaning you personally Monica.

Wouldn’t want it to be taken that way.

I did not take it personally, I rarely take anything personally, but I think it is quite usual for people to commit to something where they support most of a cause, belief system/political party, but disagree with some tenets.

At a trivial level I was on the CPRE committee for the area where I used to live. In my time on the committee I disagreed strongly with the group over one campaign they ran.
But I stayed a member of the CPRE. I even stayed on the committee, but played no part in the campaign. There was plenty else we were involved in that I whole heartedly supported and could work on instead.

But if they say ‘ I believe humans should not use animals for their own purposes” and then themselves use animals for their own purposes that’s a bit different, isn’t it?

It makes a mockery of their stated belief.

You rightly declined to take part in what you did not believe.

I won't quote granatlast007,s post it was too long, but it is doing what almost every Vegan poster (except Norah) has done on this thread, first telling us what a wonderfully healthy nutritious diet they eat, never does a food containing UPFs cross their doorstep and then compares it with the worst excesses of a non-vegan diet. Someone stuffing themselves with meat and fat all day long, with nothing healthy ever reaching their mouths.*

I don't think I said the above, I was feeling exasperated at the attacks on vegans and the suggestion that vegans feel holier than thou/morally superior. I don't know why people think that and I think it is mistaken, it's like drivers who hate cyclists and think all cyclists think they are morally superior to drivers when in fact most cyclists are drivers too.

I would suggest in fact, that many meat eaters simply feel uncomfortable at the thought of the animal they are eating and are looking for an excuse to make someone else feel guilty. I posted a Google response to the question about the unhealthiness of meat eating as a parallel to the posts about the unhealthness of a vegan diet. Does the irony of this not strike anyone?

Eat and enjoy life and stop nitpicking!!

the first para of the above was from a post by Monica

I have made it clear throughout that the subset of vegans who feel they are morally superior are only part of the vegan community, but they exist.

I do not feel remotely uncomfortable at eating meat and I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty. I am just speaking out against those vegans, like the OP who clearly do believe they occupy some high moral ground.

I would suggest in fact, that many meat eaters simply feel uncomfortable at the thought of the animal they are eating and are looking for an excuse to make someone else feel guilty.

Not necessarily. Sometimes they are just fed up of people telling them they should feel uncomfortable and insinuating they should feel guilty.

AmberGran

^I would suggest in fact, that many meat eaters simply feel uncomfortable at the thought of the animal they are eating and are looking for an excuse to make someone else feel guilty.^

Not necessarily. Sometimes they are just fed up of people telling them they should feel uncomfortable and insinuating they should feel guilty.

Good point, well made, as they say in academic circles.

Each to their own. I am sure a lot of people who eat a vegan diet eat very healthily. But there is a lot of UPF around that is vegan.

There isn't a “ vegan community” who all believe the same things - its not a religion any more than those who eat meat are a “ community” . Its just as hypocritical for meat eaters to not wish to cut the throat of an animal they wish to eat or refuse to eat horses/ dogs etc when they'd happily eat a pig who has suffered in a gas chamber as long as its sliced up in a plastic packet and called “ ham”. Stop making assumptions about those who prefer to eat plant based and expect them to be perfect. Do the least harm is a good mantra.

vegansrock There isn't a “ vegan community” who all believe the same things - its not a religion any more than those who eat meat are a “ community”

I totally agree.

Do least harm may be a good mantra but it doesn’t apply to a vegan diet.

Where animals are eliminated from the the natural food production cycle enormous amounts of chemical fertiliser have to be used.

Thus us destroying both soil ecosystems and poisoning marine life to a critical extent.

Just as meat eaters rarely have to experience the reality of slaughter so vegans are able to ignore the harm of artificial fertilisation because they too di not have to deal with the deaths caused by their wholly plant based diet.

I am expecting that any vegans reading will just turn away or instantly protest rather than research and consider.

Long term harm and destruction at a distance is always easier on the human conscience.

People eat, or don't eat meat for a whole variety of reasons.
That's entirely their business, as adults.

If they chooose not to delve into researching slaughter methods, that's also their business.

I don't eat meat, for my own probably silly reasons, but it suits me.

Of course fertiliser doesn’t have to be “artificial” all sorts of organic plant matter can be used. Its rather telling that animal manure for crops is almost always from animals that are herbivores . Human waste could be used as fertiliser if it was from those with plant based diets. There's a reason why dog and cat poo is not used as fertiliser - its toxic.

It’s a simple nutrient equation.

Nutrients needed for growth- nutrients consumed = organic matter left for nutrition. Obviously there’s a deficit there that eventually results in soil infertility.

We do use human waste now, treated obviously. But even if we all became vegan and all our waste was used our digestive systems are not able to utilise the range of plants needed to maintain a fertile cycle.

I did say vegans would immediately react with research and consideration🙄

without research and consideration-

vegansrock

Of course fertiliser doesn’t have to be “artificial” all sorts of organic plant matter can be used. Its rather telling that animal manure for crops is almost always from animals that are herbivores . Human waste could be used as fertiliser if it was from those with plant based diets. There's a reason why dog and cat poo is not used as fertiliser - its toxic.

Human waste is used as fertiliser, It is described as Biosolids and is sold to farmers and commercial growers.

In China and, I think in some other Asian countries, human waste is used directly on the soil as fertiliser.

In the days when people had earth toilets in the yard. Where do you think the contents went? They went into the midden and then on the fields or veg patch - whether they were meat eaters or not.

So you agree fertilisers don’t have to be “artificial” then? The overuse of pesticides and toxic chemicals in industrial farming etc is one of the reasons for the decline in insect life - estimated 70% loss since 1970. But obviously it’s all the fault of vegans eating all those plants. ( ignoring the fact that vast swathes are grown as animal feed) .

My whole argument is that fertilisers shouldn’t be artificial🙄