Air sourced heat pumps

“New boilers are now being made hydrogen ready.”

Hydrogen still being produced using fossil fuels at present. They haven’t thought this through have they?

I believe ground source heat pumps are much more efficient but you need plenty of room/garden outside for all the excavations. They are terribly expensive too.
If you have an air sourced heat pump, you need bigger radiators or underfloor heating.
I wonder how many pensioners will be able to afford any of this, the list of people who would get a grant from the government doesn't include us.
Therefore gas heating and the backup log burner it is, for the foreseeable future.

Nannarose
I could not agree more: insulation insulation insulation. This together with solar panels should be written in law when building houses and every other build.
Also, recycling grey water.

It was as I feared probably unfeasible for me in an older semi and many others due to cost. I’ll carry on with my gas boiler for now.

This is an interesting thread, I agree. I’m learning a lot, I feel.

On electric boilers, two of our neighbours have had them installed (we have no gas in the area) but the running costs are eye watering. One lot of neighbours is moving to something else altogether while the other set are pondering what to do. They have a child who is awaiting a kidney transplant so they need loads of hot water for hygiene plus he feels the cold as he’s painfully thin. It’s a difficult problem.

“New boilers are now being made hydrogen ready.”

Obviously the hydrogen will have to be made with green energy, rather than with fossil fuels, before it is worth doing this. So-called green hydrogen does exist, and should become more plentiful as tidal, solar and wind power become more common. We still need a lot more input from government though to get the newer technology going strongly enough. The Pentland Firth and the Severn Estuary, to name but two, are just sitting there ready to be used, so why is the investment not up to the levels we need?

Meant to say, I didn't know anything about electric boilers, not even that they exist, so yes, SueDonim, this is indeed an interesting thread.

I'm sorry if I've put people off but our house is double glazed (albeit secondary), insulated and had the over sized radiators installed (brand new) when the system was. I didn't notice any noise as the fan was further away from the house.

I think if you are going to have them installed you need to understand yourself how the system works as the professionals they send out don't understand the systems much at all.

I forgot to say, hydrogen isn’t that simple. It’s very ‘leaky’, more so than natural gas. Because the molecules are so tiny, it will find any tiny cracks in piping to escape from. Its also highly flammable, more so than gas.

Suedonim, if I had someone with such health problems, I'd want to keep them comfortable and warm too. I suppose they do things like putting electric blankets on the sofas/on beds

The reason tidal power has been so difficult to develop is because of the corrosive effect of seawater on the equipment being used.

Many different and effective ways have been discovered of exploiting wave and tide power, but all have fallen at the fence of longevity, the equipment is expensive and has a very short life becase of corrosion.

There is a new experiment taking place, that it is hoped has over come this problem, but we will have to see.

I imagine they’re doing what they can, Jane. He’s been ill for a few years now but took a downturn just as The pandemic began. He was called for transplant about a month ago but it was cancelled at the last minute because of Covid in the hospital.

SueDonim

I imagine they’re doing what they can, Jane. He’s been ill for a few years now but took a downturn just as The pandemic began. He was called for transplant about a month ago but it was cancelled at the last minute because of Covid in the hospital.

God I'm so sorry it life on a knife edge. I hope he is well enough for s suitable transplant soon x

Very interesting thread. Thanks everyone.
My gas Rayburn, 45 yrs old has just been condemned. Originally it did the cooking, hot water, warmed the kitchen and ran several radiators but we moved it to this bigger house and had to install a big gas boiler to run the radiators, plus there are 2 open fires for really cold weather.

It is possible to convert it to electricity but that will just be a cooker so I am also looking at soon replacing the big 40yr old and inefficient gas boiler (who said boilers didn't last)

Next door to me, the Town Hall is having an air source heat pump fitted . It seems to be causing problems with new flues but should be up and running in time for Christmas. They are also fitting solar panels.
I am curious to know about relative costs and efficiency before I take a plunge.
My house is vast, stone, 200 years old and cold in winter.

Meanwhile it is Summer and I am cooking on an electric ring.

My DS in NZ has "new generation" electric heating and says it's great cheap to run and efficient.
I am not sure but I think it's something like this:
www.fischerfutureheat.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwx8iIBhBwEiwA2quaqzQgZSihtn7Y8CosvL4vZ8Guwf3YRd33bxmXjzxngSz4ZP6oU43gzRoCq5kQAvD_BwE

Grammeretto I too have been reading the Fischer ads in the UK papers. In your link they are offering storage radiators, modern style and electric boilers to replace gas boilers.

How cheap the boilers would be to run depends on the price of electricity relative to alternative fuels in the country concerned. As things are in the UK, an electric boiler will be very expensive to run.

The cost of running storage heaters is often dependent on cheaper overnight power prices.

Thanks M0nica. That sounds right.

I spend a lot already so almost anything would work out cheaper but I was also wondering if grants for renewables might be available.

We fitted an electric wall heater as additional heating in one room but it has a noisy fan.
At least storage heaters would be quiet.
Unfortunately insulation isn't feasible in an old house like this apart from extra clothes.

Grammeretto We have stone built house in France and we have insulated the house internally. Most of the first floor was derelict and when DH did the conversion and repairs, he built wooden frames, as for a partition wall along the inside of the outside wall, filled it with insulation and plasterboarded over it, we also maxed the insulation in the roof and installed double glazing.

The first floor is now as cosy as any modern house.

We heat the house with electric convection heaters (and a wood stove). These are silent. They have a thermostat and timer on each heater and we set it to make sure each room is warm when we want to use it.

We could have bought computer controlled convection heaters. These link all the heaters together to one control board and you can programme the heating of the whole house from one set of controls, but for us, only visiting intermittently, it wasn't worth it. In the winter months we leave the two towel rails on when we leave the house empty and those combined with the insulation keep the internal temperature of the house above freezing point.

We are currently covering the downstairs walls of one room with a product, which you put up like wallpaper. It is a special spongy product that claims to be as effective as cavity wall insulation, but we were only part way through doing the job when COVID struck. We want to do one room, the living room, and see whether we think the room retains more heat, before we do it on all the ground floor external walls.

After installation it an be paapered and painted as normal.

The plan is to produce hydrogen with renewable electricity, feed it into the gas grid for domestic and industrial use, it’s very much a long term aim because the plastic underground pipes do leak hydrogen.

Heat pumps are best suited to new build, you really need underfloor heating, stripping out a complete house to fit it is very expensive, the cost of a new gas/hydrogen boiler is a no brainer.

Underfloor heating seems to be important to really reap the benefits of heat pumps.
I don't think I'd try to retrofit.

When you have finished yours, please come and do mine M0nica
It sounds great so thankou for the recommendation.

I tend to agree about needing to be rich to be green Katie sadly.
Friends of mine have sold their wonderful family home nr Edinburgh and built an eco house in the Scottish Highlands, where they already owned land...... all right for some.

Gas heating is generally cheaper than any kind of electricity including heat pumps at current prices. Air Source is less efficient, the one advantage is that some are capable of cooling as well as heating, so an Air to Air heat pump may be attractive.

DD1 has had a Mitsubishi air source heat pump fitted in her 30 year old 4 bed detached. She had to have extra electric radiators in the kitchen/diner and the sitting room as the pump only gives a pleasant background heat. But it is saving her money and the house doesn't feel cold - although I don't think she's actually made money yet as I think the saving bit goes towards the repayment plan. The unit whirls away to itself in the back garden and doesn't seem too intrusive - although it is quite large.

We have a 1930’s solid stone house. Dug up ground floors, insulated and laid underfloor heating pipes with a NIBE system. Have larger radiators on the first floor. The house is toasty in winter and the bills reasonable. We do qualify for the renewable heat incentive payment for seven years which covers the initial cost.
We don’t find it noisy at all. It was worth the upheaval to us. The only drawback is that the system requires a room of its own. Enormous water storage is required for our five bed house.

Our house (rented) was fitted with an air-sourced heat pump eleven years ago.

There is no gas in our area, so before it was fitted, heat was provided by one storage heater (kitchen), a small dimplex pull-cord heater (bathroom), and a coal fire with a back boiler, which in winter supplied hot water and could just about heat two radiations upstairs, as long as no one ran it all off by having a big bath!.
We paid a fortune in coal and electricity, but the house was always freezing!

The heat pump system was a huge improvement for us - the house is warm all the time, and our energy bills dropped dramatically.
The very first winter after it was fitted was 2010, which got really cold, but the temperature in the house stayed at the 21/22° that we wanted.

Before it could be installed, a lot of work had to be done on the house to make sure that it was well insulated. That was essential.

The system has to be serviced every year.
As the house is rented, I'm afraid I don't know how much this costs

We have only had one (fairly minor) problem with the system in all this time. It did take some time to get it repaired, though. I get the impression that it is still quite hard to get knowledgeable and reliable people to do both servicing and repairs!

Hydrogen is very inefficient for domestic heating when electricity can be used directly.

Hydrogen is made from electricity and only 80% of the energy of the electricity is transformed into hydrogen, the rest is used to power the process. This means that heating your house will cost at least 20% more than using electricity and given that there will be a whole lot of costs associated with building the plant to undertake the process, storage facilities, staff etc, at its cheapest, hydrogen will probably be at the very least 50% more expensive than electricity.

The simplest, cheapest and most energy efficient way to heat not just houses,but many other buildings is to replace the gas boilers with an electric boiler or other all elelctric heating system..

At the moment this is very expensive, but as gas is phased out, the comparison will not be with gas but with hydrogen and as hydrogen will cost a lot more than electricity, electricity, no matter how expensive compared with now will be the cheapest and most energy efficient fuel to use.

Heat pumps will only be effective in new builds. For the majority of housing stock, that built before 2000, and especially that built in the earlier years of the 20th century and the 19th century and earlier, then increasing your insulation, dry lining internal walls, making sure roof spaces have maximum insulation and that windows are triple glazed and draft free then replacing the gas boiler with an electric boiler will be by far the best option.

Leave hydrogen for where there, so far, seems no alternative, transport and some industrial uses.