Why are tradesmen so unreliable

Allira

It's not surprising people have difficulty finding skilled and reliable tradespeople and this will continue until attitudes change and people stop believing that the only worthwhile qualification is a degree. Students will not want to pursue those careers as long as so many people think they are inferior to degree courses.

And it will only get better for trades people when AI really comes on stream. Both Mr P and myself are indentured trades people. Both did a 6 year apprenticeship.
At one time we were both earning more than teachers.

Allira

It's not surprising people have difficulty finding skilled and reliable tradespeople and this will continue until attitudes change and people stop believing that the only worthwhile qualification is a degree. Students will not want to pursue those careers as long as so many people think they are inferior to degree courses.

Hear, hear.
I hosted German sixth form students from our local college for a year at a time. They were astonished at how tradespeople were looked down upon in the UK. They are highly respected professions in Germany.

Loans carry interest if a student gets a graduate work they can easily repay the loan interest...

That just isn't true. Loans start earning interest from the day they are paid which meant that my son had 4 years of interest payments on top of a very large loan. He is paying the required amount from his earnings. Even though he pays every month, it isn't credited to his loan account until the end of the year so he pays interest on an amount he has already paid for. On top of that, when he earns more, he has an extra 2% interest charged. He might earn that amount relatively quickly but he has to work in the City and pay huge rents in order to live. Obviously his pay is weighted for the London area but his loan and interest isn't.

"You regularly ignore the non-subject based aspects of education. Graduates learn to think outside of their own experience, to mix in a range of circles and to gain the interpersonal skills you mention. Few 16 year olds have them - they need a bit of maturity, and if they are doing boring repetitive work in their home town with others doing the same they are less likely to acquire them than if they leave home and mix with others from all over the world."

Yes I am not putting great value on the non subject experience, because I believe the first priority should be to support yourself, pay the rent is probably the biggest part amongst many other living costs, not to mention the wellbeing of the economy.

Sending half the school leavers to university is very wasteful when there there are no jobs for them, it would be much more useful for them to go to technical college to learn a skill.

As for mixing with others around the world, many of my friends children migrated immediately after a working gap year, because opportunities and lifestyle were better. Most return broke and need what ever work they can get, yes the experience was great but they have lost a year in the jobs market and a host of new graduates chasing what jobs there are.

David, can’t you see that all you are doing is listing your opinions? They may be based on your experience of your workplace (which you may have retired from some time ago?) or just from general prejudice. Why would someone want to do boring repetitive work all day when they could do something interesting? Exploring interests can mean that people have fuller lives outside of work even if their daily lives are more routine than they would like- why deny them that?

You regularly ignore the non-subject based aspects of education. Graduates learn to think outside of their own experience, to mix in a range of circles and to gain the interpersonal skills you mention. Few 16 year olds have them - they need a bit of maturity, and if they are doing boring repetitive work in their home town with others doing the same they are less likely to acquire them than if they leave home and mix with others from all over the world.

You clearly misunderstand how the loan system works, and you still haven’t explained what you mean by ‘graduate jobs’.

I am not saying that everyone should go to university. What I am saying is that nobody should be denied the opportunity to go, and particularly not so that they can fulfil a quota of people doomed to a life doing as they are told in boring repetitive work.

Doodledog

Can you back any of that up, or is it a series of further opinions?

Which degrees are irrelevant? Who is measuring interpersonal skills and how? Would the school leavers develop such skills if they went onto further or higher education?

Student loans are not being repaid because the structure of them means that most people don’t pay off the capital - the repayments go on the interest. That needs to be changed, I think.

What is ‘graduate work’?

Interpersonal skills, many school leavers see the adult world as hostile where they are instructed to do boring repetitive work all day. They don't relate to the adults they are working alongside, this is a big reason why apprentices fail, they won't concentrate to learn a skill, so the employer finds a migrant to do the work.

Irrelevant Degrees. Any that do not lead to a reasonable chance of employment, the rest are just recreational qualifications, and should not qualify for student loans.

Loans carry interest if a student gets a graduate work they can easily repay the loan interest, it's those that don't, that are the problem, reduce the number of marginal graduates. They are the ones that should be training for a technical skill.

They are the whole point of going to university is to earn a higher salary and a better lifestyle. So aiming for a professional income above the median wage.
Median wage also includes many workers with technical skills, the threshold for repaying student loans is close to that level so why would you give a loan to those with less prospects.

It's not surprising people have difficulty finding skilled and reliable tradespeople and this will continue until attitudes change and people stop believing that the only worthwhile qualification is a degree. Students will not want to pursue those careers as long as so many people think they are inferior to degree courses.

We had a very small extension to our kitchen plus the fitting of the new kitchen. Builder promised is a turnkey finish. He started work at the beginning of May and finally finished just in time for Christmas! It wasn't a turnkey finish, we had to cal him back several times in the new year to finish off little bits.

Thank you for replying to David49, Doodledog

I'm far too busy to reply.

David49

Allira

It's all about "Chiefs and Indians" at the end of the day, the chiefs do the organizing, Indians do the work.

Not quite sure what you mean by that David49, who exactly are the Chiefs and who are the Indians?

The tradespeople we know tend to run their own businesses and are hands-on themselves. Their employees are well paid too.

You all really don't have a clue.

Yes a tradesman, a worker starts work as an apprentice and works his way up as far as he can, some stay as one man bands some develop massive businesses. It doesn't matter if a technician is a hairdresser or a software engineer, all learn a trade partly practical skills, partly theoretical, our education system does not provide the productive skills we need.

For those that are unsure, Chiefs are the bosses who do the planning and provide the finance for a business, the Indians are the workers who put the plan into action, make the money to pay for the company and pay for all the managers, administrators, regulators, and revenue collectors, and hopefully, a surplus to expand the business

Workers are the most important part and we don't have enough, we have to import migrants.

Do I value education?, of course, as a means earning a living, we have to have teachers, doctors, lawyers, all need to go to university. The whole aim of university is to earn more and have a better life style, great for those that are lucky.

"Uni" has become the ultimate aim of far too many, there simply aren't enough graduate level jobs. Far too many are taking low level degrees in subjects where there are few openings. Currently virtually anyone who want to go to university and study their choice will find a place regardless of whether the rose any prospect a job, this has got to stop. Places have got to be allocated to those disciplines the country needs, not the students dream.

You all really don't have a clue.

Oh, that is very funny!! 😂😂😂

Can you back any of that up, or is it a series of further opinions?

Which degrees are irrelevant? Who is measuring interpersonal skills and how? Would the school leavers develop such skills if they went onto further or higher education?

Student loans are not being repaid because the structure of them means that most people don’t pay off the capital - the repayments go on the interest. That needs to be changed, I think.

What is ‘graduate work’?

"I don't agree that the current education system is a mess, and you are not offering any evidence that might change my mind. That is simply your opinion, which you are using to reinforce another opinion, which is that the system needs to change. That doesn't make sense."

Classroom discipline appalling, high rate of teachers leaving, high rate of unemployment of school leavers, lack of technical and interpersonal skills of school leavers. Graduates with irrelevant degrees that nobody wants to pay for, high rate of graduates not getting graduate work, record student loans not being repaid, over 700,000 graduates on Universal benefit.

Yes the educations is fine.

Why do I need to justify anything? My career is over, and not particularly relevant to my opinions, but it did give me insight into how the system works, and it is based on that insight that I refute the idea of 'low level' degrees, particularly when they are described as such from well outside of the university system.

If you read my post above, you will see what I see as the logic of Arts degrees. I can repeat it if you like?

I don't agree that the current education system is a mess, and you are not offering any evidence that might change my mind. That is simply your opinion, which you are using to reinforce another opinion, which is that the system needs to change. That doesn't make sense.

I do think that the loan system needs to be addressed (personally I would abolish it, as students bring a lot of money into local economies, but there are other points of view about that which aren't relevant to this thread).

I also think that anyone who is capable of completing a course of study should be able to take the course - ie if you pass at level 3 (A level) you should be able to move to levels 4, 5 and 6 (UG degree) and then to level 7 (Masters). If someone wants to retrain it should be cheaper and easier for them to do so, too. My reasoning is that if someone is capable of doing a job they should be able to access the resources that allow them to do it, and that choosing a line of work at a young age should not commit them to continuing in that line for the rest of their lives because of the costs of retraining.

If more tradespeople are needed by the economy, we should make being a trade more attractive, which is where I came in. Not by trapping people by denying them an education that would allow more choice, but by making the experience better, with higher pay, and greater respect. Referring to people as 'Indians' in this context is not only culturally very dubious, but shows a lack of respect for the people you say the country needs.

Doodle dog

Perhaps you could explain the logic of a student running up a £50,000 student loan studying an Art degree when there are virtually no jobs for artists.

You may be or have been a teacher or lecturer justifying your career but the current mess the education system is in reinforces my opinion that it needs to change.

David49

Allira

It's all about "Chiefs and Indians" at the end of the day, the chiefs do the organizing, Indians do the work.

Not quite sure what you mean by that David49, who exactly are the Chiefs and who are the Indians?

The tradespeople we know tend to run their own businesses and are hands-on themselves. Their employees are well paid too.

You all really don't have a clue.

Yes a tradesman, a worker starts work as an apprentice and works his way up as far as he can, some stay as one man bands some develop massive businesses. It doesn't matter if a technician is a hairdresser or a software engineer, all learn a trade partly practical skills, partly theoretical, our education system does not provide the productive skills we need.

For those that are unsure, Chiefs are the bosses who do the planning and provide the finance for a business, the Indians are the workers who put the plan into action, make the money to pay for the company and pay for all the managers, administrators, regulators, and revenue collectors, and hopefully, a surplus to expand the business

Workers are the most important part and we don't have enough, we have to import migrants.

Do I value education?, of course, as a means earning a living, we have to have teachers, doctors, lawyers, all need to go to university. The whole aim of university is to earn more and have a better life style, great for those that are lucky.

"Uni" has become the ultimate aim of far too many, there simply aren't enough graduate level jobs. Far too many are taking low level degrees in subjects where there are few openings. Currently virtually anyone who want to go to university and study their choice will find a place regardless of whether the rose any prospect a job, this has got to stop. Places have got to be allocated to those disciplines the country needs, not the students dream.

Well we will never agree. I don't think that education is a means of earning a living, or worse, as a way to earn more - I think that is the fundamental difference in our opinions. I see education as a way of opening people to new ideas, to critical thinking, to seeing both sides of an argument, and in some cases to enriching the culture of our society. If, as a result, people earn more than those who work at lower levels, then so be it, but it should not, IMO, be an end in itself.

How do you know about 'low level degrees'? What criteria do you use to decide how a subject you have never studied is 'low level' or not? How much do you know about processes within universities that exist to ensure that standards are maintained? There are many, I can assure you.

The trouble is that if people refuse to see education as an end in itself, but rather as a means to an end, and that end is to become a 'chief' rather than an 'Indian', then that will be how they rate degrees, whether or not they have a clue about how degrees actually work.

Some subjects do lend themselves more readily to direct-entry employment, I'm not denying that. But others give us people who may work in all manner of areas, not necessarily linked to their studies, but they are able to make a case, to see through weasel words, to come up with strategies that promote efficiency and much much more. Some will go on to write plays, music, novels and poems, or make Art, but as the chances of 21 year olds getting things published or performed are small, in the meantime they may work in what you might see as non-graduate jobs. So what? They would have done that anyway had they not gone to university. Some may never be a success in the field they love, but might run night classes for amateur artists, or local dramatic societies. Who knows - one of those might give a chance to a future prizewinner?

I don't think there is anything wrong with young people having dreams. Without them they will never have dreams come true, as the song goes. Would you deny them the chance?

We disagree, but I have given reasons for my disagreement, rather than simply telling you that you don't have a clue. I think that is telling.

Allira

^It's all about "Chiefs and Indians" at the end of the day, the chiefs do the organizing, Indians do the work.^

Not quite sure what you mean by that David49, who exactly are the Chiefs and who are the Indians?

The tradespeople we know tend to run their own businesses and are hands-on themselves. Their employees are well paid too.

You all really don't have a clue.

Yes a tradesman, a worker starts work as an apprentice and works his way up as far as he can, some stay as one man bands some develop massive businesses. It doesn't matter if a technician is a hairdresser or a software engineer, all learn a trade partly practical skills, partly theoretical, our education system does not provide the productive skills we need.

For those that are unsure, Chiefs are the bosses who do the planning and provide the finance for a business, the Indians are the workers who put the plan into action, make the money to pay for the company and pay for all the managers, administrators, regulators, and revenue collectors, and hopefully, a surplus to expand the business

Workers are the most important part and we don't have enough, we have to import migrants.

Do I value education?, of course, as a means earning a living, we have to have teachers, doctors, lawyers, all need to go to university. The whole aim of university is to earn more and have a better life style, great for those that are lucky.

"Uni" has become the ultimate aim of far too many, there simply aren't enough graduate level jobs. Far too many are taking low level degrees in subjects where there are few openings. Currently virtually anyone who want to go to university and study their choice will find a place regardless of whether the rose any prospect a job, this has got to stop. Places have got to be allocated to those disciplines the country needs, not the students dream.

Allira

^We know you don’t value education David - you are always complaining that not enough people leave school early and work for peanuts to make profit for others.^

Does David49 think that someone could leave school without any qualifications at all then train to become a skilled trades person?

I don't think he's said that, but he often says that university doesn't prepare people for the world of work, and that it is better for young people to learn 'on the job', so on low wages. Fewer people than in the past want to do that, particularly when they see and hear the assumptions that tradespeople are those who were 'unsuitable for university'.

Times have changed since the days when people 'knew their place', and that's often a good thing. As has been said, AI will change the 'world of work' anyway, and it will be the sort of non-'Mickey Mouse' professions that are likely to be mist badly hit. Does that mean that we should return to being a largely uneducated population? Or that it becomes normal for people to partake in both training and education, with both equally valued?

Graceless

My son is a.decotator, my Dil is a gardener and my grandson is an electrician. None of them advertise the for work, they rely on personal recommendations. They are always in work. A good reputation means everything.

It is why you also need to wait for a good tradesman. People often go with someone with the shortest wait time and then regret it.

My son is a.decotator, my Dil is a gardener and my grandson is an electrician. None of them advertise the for work, they rely on personal recommendations. They are always in work. A good reputation means everything.

Bit of a generalisation!

We’ve renovated 6 properties over the years. Would say 80% of our builders/tradespeople have been gooduns.
The worst disasters we’ve had to deal with were generally as a result of botched DIY!
Two in particular stand out. We were third way into a large extension build when my husband was taken seriously ill and hospitalised for nearly a month. I was told to prepare myself. Our builder, Paul, and his great crew took over all responsibility. I trusted him already and instructed him to take all decisions for me.
I’d get home in the early hours and find a meal his wife had made for me and our then 13 year old boy with heating instructions. Finished ahead of time and not a penny over quote.
We really struck lucky again here at our apartment, where we’ve downsized for retirement. Our builder, Chris, again had to take charge of extensive renovations as we were still trying to sell the family home. 250 mikes away. We found him through a lucky Google to fix a leaky window initially and took to him immediately.
Fabulous work, completely trustworthy. We’re atheists, he’s a committed Christian and he and his wife devote most of their spare time helping homeless people and ex-offenders to find homes and employment through a local charity.
We knew none of this when we first met him. He doesn’t bang on about it. We just liked him immediately. He’s built an equally trustworthy team about him. (Where in Perth - Scotland - btw if anyone needs a recommendation).

I’m afraid these sort of threads do irritate me. I’m sorry you’ve had bad luck but to generalise about one group of people isn’t really fair. There are good and bad in every walk of life. For some reason, being rude about tradespeople seems to be acceptable.

The thing is with education is that it is no longer as valuable at lower levels as it used to be. For example, in years gone by, a couple of A levels got you on a decent job ladder. Now it seems that you need a first degree if not a Masters.
My DIL left childcare as a Room Leader with a level 3 qualification to work in a different career for a while. She is now back doing childcare and she has been told that she will need a minimum of a Level 6 qualification to get back to where she was.
I'm not sure that the education system has made people more qualified to do jobs, I think it has just spread things out. It also means that it is harder for poorer students to access the higher levels of qualifications they need.

We know you don’t value education David - you are always complaining that not enough people leave school early and work for peanuts to make profit for others.

Does David49 think that someone could leave school without any qualifications at all then train to become a skilled trades person?

Chiefs and Indians??? Good grief.

Leaving the dubious analogy aside, that is what I am saying - people are not going to voluntarily ‘do the work’ for the benefit of organisers now they know they are capable of more.

Restricting access to education to enforce a hierarchical structure is not going to work either. We know you don’t value education David - you are always complaining that not enough people leave school early and work for peanuts to make profit for others. But for years now it has been shown that ‘ordinary’ people are capable of benefiting from an education. Yes, there are those who try to dismiss degrees they haven’t studied to minimise the efforts of others. Yes, the student loan system is dreadful, and needs an overhaul. But actively pushing to return to a system that divides people by giving opportunities to some and denying them to others is, IMO, indefensible.

MT62

Someone in our family has left a well paid job due to AI, to become a roofer in the family business.
They said Al could do the his job better than he could. Frightening 😳

that’s to David49

Someone in our family has left a well paid job due to AI, to become a roofer in the family business.
They said Al could do the his job better than he could. Frightening 😳