How can I be expected to pay £ 1,000 per month top up for my father.

Social workers are under enormous pressure from their line managers to stay within budget - the irony is that there is a legal obligation for them to ASSESS people's needs, but no legal obligation to MEET those needs. In law they cannot take the budget into account when assessing needs, but the reality is that this is in everyone's mind. When the community care act came there were many fine words, but all of us SWs on the ground said that it would only work if there were sufficient funds in the LA budgets. Prior to this time, residential and nursing home fees were paid via the social security budget and were based solely on income - the fee came from national coffers and if you were eligible you got it. Community care was basically a way of introducing rationing - it was sold as a means of making sure that only those who had real care needs were supported by the state and also as a way of being locally responsive - it was in fact simply rationing by another name.

I share concerns about social work training - I was involved in training SWs on placement - I cannot tell you how exasperated I became by the quality of the students - some truly were dim. I will say no more - it is too embarrassing as an ex-SW.

I do know a social worker who moved in with her mother after inheriting her father's half of the property. It was a house worth at least £500,000 at the time.
Her mother had to go into care a few years later.
I noticed the Social Worker stayed in the property and downsized about 3 years after her mother passed away.
I know she could not legally be forced to sell it to pay her mother's care fees but she was telling people in a similar situation they should.

Bill

One strategy that people can adopt to save on care home fees, including top-ups, is to negotiate the cost of their care before they move into a home. Local councils always negotiate with care homes and on average save £100 a week. Private residents hardly ever negotiate and end up paying more for exactly the same service. I’ve had plenty of experience of doing this and it works.

Hi icare

I know Jane 1945 could negotiate with the care home to bring the fees down by a certain amount.
Obviously the NHS has placed the father in that home for some reason.
It appears they are trying to get Jane1945 to pay as her father has high care needs.
Top ups are supposed to be voluntary if the relatives wants the relative in a better home etc.
If Jane's father does not qualify for NHS funding in a years time the council should find him a home at their usual rate or they should pay the extra.

Miranda

We are so lucky. My Husbands late step Father made a will that stated that when he died my Husbands Mother could live in the house but her 4 sons owned it.
All my Mother in laws pension goes to the home but they can't touch the house.

Hi petra

I got early retirement at 55 and was widowed. My mother had also passed away but had left me her share of the house and I owned half the house Dad was living in.
As I lived 30 miles from my father we decided it was best my house was sold and I went to live with him.
5 years later my father got dementia and care had to be arranged.
When I first saw the social worker at about 10 am she said that as I had inherited half the house from my mother that half would have to be returned to my father and the house would have to be sold.
I knew my half could not be taken but I just said my father was entitled to NHS funding and I was going to see a solicitor.
I arranged an appointment for mid day the next day and her manager came on the phone and offered to let me keep half the house.
By that time I had read Age Concern factsheet 38 and realised the house could not be touched as I was a joint owner and I was 60 and I just said I wanted NHS funding.
The next morning another manager came on the phone and admitted the house could not be touched as I was a joint resident owner but said my fathers savings and pension would be taken.
I said I was still going to see a solicitor.
On my way to the solicitor my mobile phone went and the Continueing Care Nurse said my father was eligible for NHS funding.
Sadly my father passed away in February but I am still in the house and I am now a full owner.
A point I have also found was the house should have been disregarded anyway as I was my father's carer.
I did meet the social worker on a few occasions and she said it was wrong that somebody who had half ownership of a £600,000 house should have their care paid for by the NHS.
I offered to pay the solicitor for the appointment which never happened but he would not take any money but said his favourite charity was McMillan so I sent a donation on his behalf.

As Bill says Social Services are strapped for cash. They will do anything they can to get members of the family to bear the burden of the cost of caring for a family member, physically and financially. This includes telling lies and emotional blackmail.

When you are crushed by concern for your relations and frequently stressed and exhausted by everything is the ideal time for them to put the boot in because you are more likely to give way.

Contact your local branch of Age UK. They will be able to give you all the help and advice you need and most of the larger Age UK offices also have an Advocacy Service where someone can stand by you and help and advise.

Do I sound bitter? Yes of course I do. I have been through it twice. I would sooner die in a gutter than ask any Social Services department for help.

Hi FlickertyB

I can see what you are saying.
By standing my ground I have kept the house and was able to visit Dad most days.
It was a 30 mile round trip plus other mileage to get clothes etc so my car was doing about 15,000 miles a year.
At least I was able to use his money to pay for the fuel etc and it was less of a worry when he broke his glasses on 2 occasions.
I was also able to take him a treat in every time I visited.

sandra52, well done, I too dug my toes in and refused to be pushed around by social services, but getting the best care arrangements for the elderly in need in our families should not depend on how mentally strong and blody minded the carer is. Not everybody has the knowledge and mental strength to battle with Social Services while also dealing with a crisis situation in an elderly relations life.

While I can see where you're coming from flick and I admire the fight you put up, there is a valid point being made. Why should somebody with a £600,00 house expect the state to pick up the bill?

Someone I know owns a £800,000 house and has an opulent lifestyle, and her mother owns a £250,000 house. This person has had use of her mother's pension for some years and stands to inherit mother's house. Mother is in care now and every effort is being made to get all fees paid for by NHS so that mother's money (house and pension) stays in the family.

Not sure what I think about wealthy (ish) people being supported out of taxes which are sorely needed for other things at the moment.

Maybe the guidelines need simplifying so we have a fairer system which is not so open to interpretation. At the moment determined people are more likely to avoid paying.

The NHS rightly has to pay for nursing care. Personal care is paid for through Social Services but they can and do require the client to pay with his/her own resources, including proceeds from the sale of the house.

Hi Nanadogsbody

I think you are refering to my case.
The house was worth about £600,000 but Dad only owned half of it as my mother had willed her half to me.
As I was in residence because I had the right to live in it if you look at Age Concern factsheet 38 my Dad's half is worthless as nobody will buy half a house with me living in it for potentially 40 years.
In any case my father's needs were health related.
He had attacked 2 nurses at the hospital due to his dementia and he had a lot of strength so the NHS had to pay.
The Social Worker wanted me to give up all of the house.
What nobody wanted to take into account half of it was mine, I had spent about £80,000 on repairs / improvements to the house while I was with Dad and I had been paying things like private medical insurance and for holidays for Dad so his interest in the house was nothing like £600,000.

Hi petallus

The fact that the son or daughter owns an £800,000 house does not come into the situation. The house belongs to the son / daughter.
I presume the mother is widowed. Are you sure she owns a £250,000 house.
The father may have left his half to the offspring and he / she may be registered as a half owner.
Looking at Age Concern factsheet 38 it appears the mother's share is worthless as the house can not be sold without the consent of the son / daughter.
I was speaking to a widowed man who's father was in the nursing home with dementia.
The man said he owned a 6 bedroom house worth again about £800,000 paid for by himself and his late wife.
While his mother and father was alive they lived in a rented house.
When his mother passed away he accomodated his father in his house.
The social worker did try to say that 1 person on his own does not need a 6 bedroom house and told him he could downsize and use the money to pay for the father's care.
This case was worse than mine because the house had been paid for by himself and his late wife and in no way belonged to the father.

Hi annodomini

Look at NHS Continuing Healthcare.

If a person's prime needs are health related the NHS is liable for all of the bill regardless of means.

Hi FlicketyB

The Social worker did try to blackmail me.
About 20 homes looked at my father and none would take him.
The social worker did come to me and say there was a home which would take him at a cost of £1,200 per week but the NHS would not pay that amount.
She said he could go there if I paid. She also said things like Dad was dangerous and if he was let out he could attack a child and I would be responsible.
I just refused to pay and Dad was in hospital for about another 3 weeks.
After that time he was transferred to that home and the NHS had no alternative but to pay up.
The social worker saying my father could attack a child did not bother me.
I knew my father could not be let out in that state and if they had been stupid enough to let him out I could have not been held liable for his actions.

Yes - there is a difference between NHS continuing health care and NHS funded nursing care. In the latter case the costs are split with only the nursing care being funded by the local PCT. Sorry I misunderstood you sandra. Obviously your dad's need is for continuing health care.

I agree sandra5 that as a rule someone's wealth shouldn't come into whether their parent pays for their own care or not.

But in the case I mentioned the parent, who owned the whole of her own house (worth £250,000) and has a substantial pension, would normally be expected to use some of her assets to pay for her own care.

However, her daughter, who is very well off already, is pulling every string she can to avoid her mother doing this so she can inherit the house and keep on living off the mother's pension.

I was widowed at age 55 and had redundancy / early retirement that year.
My mother passed away just before I was 56 and my father became physically disabled and I cared for him until I was 63.
Suddenly my father got dementia and I could not cope and he had to go into care.
First the assessor said I should pay as I had a bungalow and she knew they were reasonably expensive ( about £400,000 ).
I said it was my bungalow and none of it belonged to Dad.
She then tried to say that Dad only had a few months to live and his care would not come to a large amount.
I just said I was not paying and I left and found out about NHS Continuing Care.
The manager came on later and still wanted me to pay but I just said I was not paying.
After a couple more calls I went to my solicitor and he sent a letter and as a result NHS funding was agreed.
A year later Dad was still alive and he was re assessed and the person tried to palm him off with social funding but changed his mind when I said I would involve a solicitor.
Two years later the same happened.
The person who assessed him on the third year said this was clearly an NHS funding case.
On the fourth fifth and sixth assessment social funding was tried but changed to NHS funding when I said I would take legal action.
A seventh year assessment was done by the same person who did Dad's first assessment and I reminded her that she told me over 6 years before Dad only had a few months to live and NHS funding was agreed for another year.
She did say this was a very extreme case and it has cost the NHS a lot of money.
If I has not pressed for NHS funding for Dad my retirement would have been totally ruined by now.
When I visited Dad this morning he was well alive and I am nearly 70 and he went into care nearly 6 and a half years ago.
I feel I deserve some holidays etc when Dad does pass away.
How long have I got to live?.

Jane

This thread is very interesting and I've made a few notes.

Not for me because my parents have both died without needing care.

However, I intend to make sure my children know about these things just in case DH or I have to go into care at some time in the future.

If a property is held in joint names, as is usual with married couples, when one dies that property automatically goes to the other. One partner cannot in law 'will' the property to another third party. However you can have a solicitor separate the property into two names ( forget the legal term) and then you can will it as you will (forgive the pun). This has not yet, according to my own solicitor been tested in law yet.

If any person over 60 is still living there as their primary residence then the house cannot be sold to defray care costs.

But that's not my point. Why should the state have to pick up the cost of paying for my care when/if I need to go into a home in the future? If my children want my assets, including my house, then they need to do their bit by looking after me when I need support. This happens in many cultures, but increasingly less in ours. Children want to inherit their parents money, but don't want the burden of looking after the in their old age. Instead they expect the state to pick up the tab and then to sit back and inherit. Cake and eat it????

Hi Nanadogsbody

I will not inherit a lot but in my case I did care for my father for 7 years but it just got to the point where he went beyond what 1 person could do at the time.
If there had been a house to inherit I would have expected the fact I had cared for Dad for 7 years to be taken into account.
I know that an extreme has happened with my father in the fact he has lived for another 6 years.
In my case if it had not been for my father I would have been able to have got another job so I have lost 5 years of my working life.
On top of that social services wanted me to pay for my fathers care and if I had I would now be homeless and posibly bankcrupt.
I have saved the taxpayer money and got no thanks.

bone42 I think it's very commendable that you looked after your father for all that time. Believe me I do know what a sacrifice it is. My remarks were not aimed at people like yourself who have done what they can. Rather I am asking the question of those who do absolutely nothing or the bare minimum and yet expect rich pickings.

I am expecting a lot of flack after my posting, but wonder if some people see my point ?

I so wish the Gov had followed through the 'everyone contributes 35,000 and then all care is provided in old age' it seemed so sensible and not an extortionate amount imo and at least gave an idea to younger people what they needed to aim for.

Instead we have this carry on. An in-law is a financial advisor and moved all his mother's savings (about 30,000 I think) into an offshore account !!! To ensure the state will have to pay. So far no one seems to have chased up proof of her now minimal savings and she is getting funding for carers a few times a week.

Now everyone is wise to how the state will grab their savings when they go into a home many more people will hide their money to ensure it is there to go to their offspring on their demise. So the gov will get less money over time not more as those needing funding increase in number.

LaGrande I am not so sure.
Firstly, it wouldn't be everyone contributing £35K would it? It would only be those who had worked and saved their money, and they would be subsidising those who hadn't. To those who say we should support the less well off etc., I already do, through taxation.
Secondly I would not trust the state to provide even adequate care.
I do not object to paying for my own (social) care and expect to do so if I need it (nursing care is different and should be paid for by the NHS) but I would prefer to have some choice in the matter.