Drunks

or empathise even!

Noodles and Bez. I agree with what you say and can emphathise with your situations. People have no idea - and why would they. We were badly neglected as children but (all but one of us) survived it. There are some kids that don't survive. We are reasonably intelligent people who have done OK in life despite it all. Ironically my mother never drank and died at 58 and my father who drank and smoked to excess lived to nearly 70. She had the stress and worry, he just carried on in his own way like a single teenager. I think I am sounding a bit 'maudlin' now. Apologies.

OhNoodles and Katy how those who have not lived with it have no idea. My first OH was an alcoholic and it ruined so much for us and the children - my DS can still not talk about it and his father has been dead for twenty years. If you listen to people with the experience of having a parent or partner with an alcohol problem so much of what they say is exactly how things were for you. I remember listening to Mo Mowlam talking about her father and my DD rang me to see if I was listening as she could not get over how the things she was saying were so reminiscent of our own experience. Katy

KatyK Painful memories. Knowing what its like to live with a drunk is a quite different thing from learning about alcoholism, or even working with alcoholics, isin't it? I have raw memories of my brother who drank himself to death, literally. He neglected his wife and little children, prefering booze to family time and making my sister-in-law's life an absolute misery. B******.

Greatnan. I agree there is nothing attractive about a drunk. As I said in my earlier post, my father was what today we call an alcoholic. In those days they were called drunkards. He sometimes worked, came home 2 days after being paid with no money left to give my mother to feed and clothe 6 children, demand food to be put on the table and then beat her up if she didn't provide it, all in full view of the kids. Strangely all of his kids like a drink, but obviously not to the levels he sank to. Maybe it is in the genes - I don't know.

Thanks for posting the links nanaej. I have a relative who has recently come out as an alcoholic and I am trying to learn as much as possible about it. He has been told by doctors on no account to stop drinking as this could cause fits. I don't know whether heavy social drinking caused the alcoholism or the alcoholism caused the heavy drinking.

I also tend to obsessiveness, Tegan, but mine manifests itself in extreme tidiness and a need to accomplish anything I set out to do. When I first started serious walking, I would decide to walk for two hours and if I got back to the car in 1 hr. 55 mins I would walk around for another five minutes. (Two hours might not seem long for a walk, but these were up extremely steep, rough mountain paths, often involving some climbing).
Now, I just find that if I set out to reach a summit I can't give up until I am there.
I have to deal with letters or phone calls, especially difficult ones, at once. and I have to wash up immediately after a meal. I need as much order and structure in my life as possible, perhaps because the addiction of somebody else has caused me great pain and there is nothing I can do about it, so I control as much of my life as I can.
I don't think I have an addictive personality. All the years I lived in Monte Carlo, I would spend 100 francs, which was then £10, every week on the fruit machines. I would play until it was either all gone or I had won 500 francs, which happened twice. I was never tempted to spend another 100 francs once my money was gone and I regarded it as spending the original stake, rather than gambling it, as I knew I was almost bound to lose it but it gave me some pleasure while it lasted.
I have never smoked or taken drugs, and I drank too much to escape from a difficult situation - until I realised that not only did it not help but also made it less possible for me to cope.
I do believe there is a genetic tendency to addiction but some people overcome it.

I've actually got a very obsessive personality [if that's the right term to use] and I often think that I could become addicted to all sorts of things quite easily. When I smoked I would chain smoke, I couldn't have one cigarette and then have another a few hours later. And, although I've never gambled excessively [and only ever had tiny bets] there was a stage where I was doing very well and kept wanting to re create the endorphin rush you get when you win, so I stopped for a while. I went through a phase of having a glass of sherry at night to help me sleep but then found I was drinking more each night so, again, I just stopped. Same with food; a bit all or nothing. And yet, for years I had alcohol all over the house [left over from parties or trips abroad] and never even thought of drinking it.

There is solid proof that alcoholism can be hereditary and a child born to an alcoholic mother or ather is much more likely to become an alcoholic themselves. There are studies that have been carried out using twins of an alcoholic (I do not know if it was their mother or father or indeed both) who were given up for adoption and yet still went on to become alcoholics themselves. I think the risk is something like 4 times more likely.

I always think that there is some underlying cause that makes anyone a drug addict or alcohol dependant.

I cannot bring myself to believe it is a disease but rather an inability to control themselves and as Noodles says it is a me me me situation really and everyone close suffers - believe me I KNOW from the receiving end. In my experience they think for so long that they can stop and it is DEFINITELY NOT an addiction - until it is all too late and everything is ruined.
It affects young people when it is their father and many never totally get over the trauma caused.

nanaej

I can see why this would appeal to alcoholics, it makes it OK for them to be total selfish b****. Other than that, no, still nothing there that describes alcoholism as a disease. But lots that feed into the 'poor me' and 'I was drinking at the time and couldn't help it', style of treatment.

Thanks for posting the links. Sorry, I did try to reword this post, but only succeeded in making it sound worse!

Not so secret, though, if everyone knew about it, Frank!

A couple of bottles of cider twice a week does not make your granddad an alcoholic...

www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340

www.alcoholissues.co.uk/what-causes-alcoholism.html

These links may be of interest..I am no specialist but have friends who are recovering alcoholics.

Strangely enough some people thought my granddad was an alcoholic.
If a visitor came around out would come the cider.
His grandchildren were not classed as visitors for cider purposes.
Visitors came around about twice a week.
He only drank 1 or 2 bottles when they were there but on other nights he generally had coffee or drinking chocolate.
On some nights he would consume a full bottle of lemonade so I suppose he was a secret lemonade drinker.

Frank

Hello nanaej How do you test for alcoholism? Is there an alcoholic gene? In what way does an alcoholics brain differ from a regular drinker?

Alcoholics families see it all the time - the alcoholic is the one who makes all the choices, and they pretty much choose themselves and the bottle every single time. A huge sense of entitlement and a scary level of self-pity is what make alcoholics.

noodles I understand how devastating alcoholism is for families however it is a physiological and psychological condition. Sadly people often get beyond the point of being able to seek help before they realise they need help.

It is a form of illness and not a choice. There are those who are not alcoholic and who choose to get seriously drunk..I feel less sorry for them particularly if they cause nuisance, damage or harm. But I can feel empathy for the alcoholic and his/her family.

I can't bring myself to have any pity for alcoholics. My sympathy, empathy and compassion are for their families, especially children, who live with the fear of an alcoholic father or mother or other abusive family member.

Surely there are different levels of "drinking too much".

There are the weekend drunks who go into town and "act themselves" and cause general mayhem and then there are the full blown alcoholics who are suffering from an illness and should be pitied.

Frank - I meant showing the drunken person a video of themselves after they had sobered up!

Greatnan

I think most people have seen a drunk and know how stupid they look. I have seen several. I don't tend to be out very late now but I am probably out a bit later than average for a person of my age.
My 2 daughters are nurses and had to deal with them in the past but they are no longer in that area.
Going back a few years I had to go to A & E on a Saturday night and I think myself and my daughter were the only people who were not drunk in the waiting room and the drunks started picking on us and making the situation very uncomfortable.
Fortunately this was picked up by the hospital and we were taken through and treated very quickly.
I think the nurse was pleased to have somebody sensible to deal with.
The security people were concerned problems could happen if we exited through the waiting room so they lead us through what seemed to be miles of corridors and let us out of a different door.
The security man even stayed with us until we had closed the door of the car.

Frank

Snap, KatyK! I don't think I ever set out to get drunk but I have heard young people state that they are going to get 'bladdered!'. This is an odd ambition, because once you are that drunk you usually stop enjoying yourself. I am told that young Afro-Caribbean men do not get drunk because it is not 'cool'. Perhaps if we could show videos of the way they behave when drunk to young people they would realise how very 'uncool' they look. There is nothing attractive about a drunk.

Yes, dealing with somebody you love who is an addict is very painful. They can be extremely manipulative and masters of emotional blackmail.

Greatnan. I too have been puzzled by how they can drink a bottle of wine at home before they go out. If I drank a bottle of wine, there would be no going anywhere except to sleep.

Bez, I still think that the term 'personality failing' is demeaning. Whether I know or have had dealings with an addict is beside the point.

Frank - why not put them in the stocks? Your lamp post idea is cruel and can you imagine how much they would suffer at the hands of passing nasty youths? We need our diminishing police force to catch criminals not to stand by a lamp post ensuring the drunks' safety.
.
The idea that they could afford these huge fines is ludicrous. When I worked at our local Medical Centre I asked one of our GPs how alcoholics could afford to drink - especially if they are on benefits. Apparently, they don't buy food, don't really need it as alcohol depresses ones appetite. Their usual shopping list is coffee/tea, milk, butter and bread.
It is horrible seeing people falling over drunk day and night. We need a different plan to address this problem.

Ana If you had been on the receiving end of a person with an addiction to alcohol, or possibly another addiction, and who could not or would not stop then you may have a different view.
The trouble is many of these things are quite insidious the way they begin low key and then grow and grow - the people with the addiction often think that they can control their activity and there is no problem. I have great admiration for anyone who beats an addiction, especially to alcohol as it is so readily available, and even more admiration for anyone who can continue a relationship with such a person as the stress and continual worry must remain even if it is below the surface.
Binge drinking may be a different matter initially but can escalate and it does a lot of damage even though it is intermittent as opposed to an alcoholic being almost continually in an inebriated state.