Expensive holidays during school breaks. What do we think.

I once spent a miserable year teaching (or trying to teach) in a sec-mod about-to-be-comp in rural Norfolk. During the summer term, exams or no exams, a considerable number of senior pupils decamped to go strawberry picking. Oddly enough a couple of the farmers who employed them were school governors. Presumably this no longer happens, though when, out of curiosity, I looked up the said school in the league tables, I wasn't too sure about that!

Copy of part of an e-mail sent to apologise for my outburst yesterday:

'It is just that I have organised so many trips in my teaching career, from French and German exchanges, 6th Form work placements, Youth Hostelling trips at week-ends for kids who could not afford other school trips, Youth Hostelling 'bonding' trips for my Tutor groups- a ski and snowboarding club once a week after school going with the school minibus (£5!) and returning home at 8.30pm- and ski/snowboarding trips all in my own holidays at half-term, by bus to keep cost down, organising second-hand ski clothing sale and hire, again to keep cost down- preparing educational materials for each trip, based on geography, culture and environment, language, etc. The work load, responsibility and stress is unbelievable- and on the trip up at the crack of dawn and often up all night.'

Which is the reason I felt it unfair to accuse teachers of taking advantage of 'freebies'- as I think most people do not realise the amazing amount of work it takes to organise some trips.

BTW, when teachers go on a trip in school-time, they also have to spend hours and hours preparing every lesson for when they are away- so that supply or cover teacher can ensure kids don't lose out, with detailed instructions, worksheets, acetates for the projector, etc, etc and the Head of Department (or if the HOD is on the trip, his second in charge or Deputy Head will ensure all goes smoothly). For some subjects, this is not too onerous if kids can study and do exercises from a book- in French and German it was very complicated and time-consuming (my subjects).

I agree grumppa.

And, relatively speaking, teachers do earn a good salary (I know it can be a very stressful job, but other people have stressful jobs and don't earn that much).

But I think the point of what this is all about is that holiday firms are greedy, and the chap wants a debate about that.

Prices can also be high in September when the children have gone back to school and we oldies might like a break.

Oh janerowena You say "teachers don't earn much" Oh come on. They do have a good wage and plenty of scope for promotion and wage incrementation too. I do appreciate that many do an excellent job but I am sorry I refuse to feel sorry for the "poor" teacher who can only afford to take their family to "nearby Europe" on holiday Oh the very shame of it.

I was wondering if childminders are allowed to keep their children out of school. GD's childminder takes her family to Florida for a few weeks in May which means we can't have a holiday because we take over care of GD for three weeks.
I am pleased people can afford to take their children on holiday, mine didn't get one until they were eighteen.

I agree grumppa circumstances should be taken into consideration and it should be up to the individual school to decide whether a few days spent with the family during term time is really going to harm the childs education.

Same here, I could rarely have my holidays in the summer because that was when I was busiest and DBH is a teacher. So, from our own point of view

Teachers don't earn all that much, unless both of you have really good jobs and few children then nearby Europe is pretty much the farthest you can afford unless you are still young and don't mind slumming it. We dearly wish we could go on holiday during term time.

BUT half the class can disappear at times on holiday. Ski-ing holidays are remarkably popular. It was deemed wisest to start to take children for a week at DBH's school just to factor it into the timetable, so that the curriculum could be adjusted to allow for what became a predictable absence. As the teachers have to do a sort of tick list to say that yes, the child has been taught that subject, it makes it almost impossible for them to catch up all the pupils and the February half term was the one where most pupils went missing. Of course they go missing at other times, of course they say they will catch up with the work (but don't) and of course when they take the exam they then say 'But Sir you didn't teach me that!'

No the majority of teachers don't enjoy going on school trips. Pages upon pages of forms to fill in. They know that at least one pupil every year will break something. A whole night will be spent at a strange hospital trying to converse in a strange language. Parents may have to be called to collect a child who has misbehaved. My husband hides when they are trying to find someone willing to go on any school trips away. My french-teaching friend says she is taking early retirement purely so that she won't ever have to do another french exchange, during which at least one night will be spent trying to haul underage children from bars and nightclubs because they have climbed out of windows from their host family's house to meet up with their friends.

The arguments against holidays in term-time are very strong, but circumstances can alter cases. It all looks like interfering and unnecessary micromanagement by the DoE; schools should be trusted to make decisions within a policy framework, with individual GBs determining with their Heads the mechanism for decision-taking in each school.

Granjura honey , No Problem !
Enjoy your day !

gillybob no, unfortunately, she doesn't get to spend enough time with her children. They are either in holiday club, staying with their dad or with me, as she has two jobs - four days teaching, two days hairdressing each week in term time, and extra days hairdressing, training, writing apprentice and student appraisals or required in-college planning during end of term breaks.

"lucky they're born" what the hell am I banging on about?

Not all teachers are married to teachers. Spouses are likely to have the statutory four weeks of holiday which will then have to be take during the school holidays. My DS has 'normal' holidays and his wife is a teacher.

I bet your daughter gets to spend most of her holidays with her children though when. I think its a crying shame when families can't get to spend at least one week of quality time together whether that be in Spain or at home in the garden. My grandchildren hardly know what it's like to have mum and dad in the house together never mind having a whole week with them. I have a great deal of respect for most teachers and very little for some, however they are all extremely lucky they're born when it comes to enjoying family time.

gillybob it is hard on parents when there is a works shutdown when they must take their annual leave.
When I was teaching in Oldham there was a traditional factory shut down time when all mills traditionally closed and so did schools "Oldham Wakes Weeks" as it was known. Cue half the town to decamp to Blackpool etc. This is of course not a viable solution in most environments.
I agree though that holidays are not an essential and many people just can't afford, price hike or no price hike.

I think this is a fairly balanced summary.
www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jan/29/parents-children-holiday-school-terms
Interesting that one week a year adds up to three months of teaching time over a school career.
The big problem I have is that it creates so much extra work for everybody. As Granjura says, teachers will bend over backwards to help children who are off with illness, but if every child is having a week off a year to go on holiday, that is a lot of disruption to learning and a lot of extra teaching time.
If employers are refusing all annual leave in school holiday time, then that is a different issue. The expense of providing child care must be enormous for those families.

One of my daughters is also a teacher, but her term dates don't all fit those of her children!

Well said Whenim64!

Anniebach - teaching of Welsh in Welsh schools has only fairly recently become enforced - it used to be optional as you probably know. My point is that it wastes time, is a fairly useless subject, and a child could learn far more during a week's holiday which HAS to be taken in termtime due to parents' circumstances.
PS I am not saying that Welsh should be allowed to die out, rather that it should be optional, and that the discretion for termtime holidays should remain with the HT, at Foundation level at least.

Compulsory teaching of Welsh is a whole other debate.

Oh come on anno most working parents have around 4 weeks holiday a year. My son and DiL more often than not have to take most of theirs seperately as DiL has shutdown imposed on her and they have to organise childcare around this. Teachers are in a different league when it comes to holidays! Yes they have the same price inflations imposed on them but there are not many careers that allow you to spend around 13 weeks of quality time with your children.

True annodomini, but teachers are not on the minimum wage

The majority of teachers are also parents. They don't have the option of taking time out during school terms.

Does it really make any difference if a family choose to spend a holiday in Benidorm or stay at home as long as they are enjoying valuable family time together? Many parents (my son and DiL) work shift patterns and My DiL has her holidays set by her employers. Why should they not get to spend 1 week out of 52 together as a family? I agree its different if the child is in the middle of important exams but for a bright child who is virtually never off school, I really can't see the problem.

We're debating the sides of a problem that has been created because schools are being criticised for not churning out children who meet educational standards, and market forces that are enabling holiday companies to make exorbitant profits. Parents are stuck in the middle.

When they make reasonable effort to help their children learn, bring them to school on time and ready to learn for a high percentage of their school days, take holidays together and parent them responsibly, it shouldn't be necessary to call on head teachers and governors to decide whether they can take a holiday. A simple form, filled in by parents in advance explaining their situation, can be filed away and only referred to if there's recurring absenteeism.

Why not concentrate on poor attendance and attainment, instead of applying sheep dip policies to every single child? It's not difficult to root out persistent absenteeism, as opposed to the occasional holiday that can't be organised without intruding on term time by a few days. Schools have been made to adopt a policy that is causing unnecessary work, if they have to blindly refer every reasonable request to take a few days for a holiday. Last year, my grandchildren's school was able to grant up to a week without any bureaucratic tussles and the head teacher had no issue with it. This year, he has no room for manoeuvre and it's creating problems that needn't have arisen. He knows that a fine is cheaper than the alternative of a costly holiday the following week, and this artificial imposition is creating more work than using discretion and focusing on unexplained absenteeism.

margaretM, either Welsh is taught in schools or it isn't . You can't have students opting out of classes, be more stressful for teachers than taking a week off for a holiday.

What is so wrong in all this is children from more affluent families can afford to holiday in August, children from less affluent families can not. The government can't order firms, landladies / lords to lower their prices so the schools must stop fining parents . I am not speaking of a months absence .

I would not have taken our daughters out of school for two weeks but the week in June every year did not cause problems with their school work

This is a very good, and thoughtful debate, with opinions and information from all angles. My school also operated a trip exclusion zone, and I am amazed that a school would take children away just before exams.

There was once a student missing from my Y11 class in the week before GCSEs. "She's gone to her Nan's villa in Spain, Miss, for a rest." I curbed my immediate response, which would have been that as far as I could see, she had done nothing but rest for the past year..

I don't think the occasional week for something special, in non examination season, does any harm. If parents want to go to exotic places, that is their choice, and if they are constrained by their own working times, it is a decision for them. But the the consequences must be faced if it happens regularly.

(Facile remarks about "freebies" add nothing to the debate!)