P of A

Daughter needs a good slap! How dare she opt out and leave you with all this stress. I bet she'll be there to see how much money he leaves... or maybe she doesn't want to make decisions about care as it will affect how much he has in the bank. Sorry to be so cynical but it happens all too often

Mcem what a difficult situation.
I have no experience and can't offer any advice but i hope it is resolved for all involved very soon ? Barmeyoldbat I'm surprised the council haven't made an arrestment on your daughter's benefits to recover the money owing. Its definitely something they can do.

I was going to say what Still said.

When mum's behaviour became out of control and disruptive the consultant psychiatrist was called and would have 'sectioned' her for her own safety. She eventually agreed to go to hospital where they changed her medication and she was able to move to a specialist dementia care home.

Daughter has PoA - both welfare and financial.
Father has been offered a care package of 4 daily visits or if he pays the additional costs could have 24 hour live-in care.
He has refused all help/offers/suggestions as he is convinced that everyone is conspiring against him. Dementia has been confirmed.
Given that all options have been refused and daughter won't take responsibility for a final decision, I believe that Stella 's comments are most relevant and that sectioning is the only solution.
I don't feel I can offer daughter any useful advice and will see what happens next with SS.

God what a nightmare Barmey. Mind you the way they’re whacking up care contributions she’s right to make a stand!!

Solitaire, what do you mean, 'you' had to contribute out of 'her' disability pension? Her disability pension was hers, by definition, part of her own income. So she had to contribute herself.

Try www.carersuk.org they have an excellent advice helpline who will be able to help

When a person is deemed no longer to have ‘capacity’ and this is placing themselves and/or others at risk, the usual route to protecting them is for them to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act. The GP can refer to the Psychiatrist at the local Older Adults service, who can impliment this after an assessment together with a Social Worker. The order will be for the shortest time required. Most elderly people in this situation agree to a care home once they have left their home and the initial distress is over.

Excellent advice Emily.

As Daughter has Power of Attorney and not the more recent arrangement Lasting Power of Attorney (welfare) They only deal with financial decisions on behalf of the person. Therefore she is quite right not to interfere.

Her father, as he wishes to stay at home, should be offered a care package in his home. And if necessary, given she has financial control daughter could realise some of the value of his house to help pay for the package that would keep him in his home as he desires.

Yes Nez you are right, my daughter is deemed to have capacit6 but only just. She can manage the health and welfare side of life with all the support she gets but is unable to manage anything other than day to day shopping and paying monthly bills with the help of the wonderful bank staff. She refuses to pay the Council for her care as the DWP have told her that the money she gets is hers. Nothing we or anyone say will make her change her mind. I am able to keep up her monthly payments but she owes the Council £4000. They have tried to get it from me as I have POA for her finances but as I point out she has capacity and I can’t therefore do anything with her money without her say so. This has run for just over 5 years and I am now being very laid back about the whole situation.

Jaycee - no - there are health and welfare decisions as well and many have PoA for that. If someone has already lost capacity then the court either appoint a deputy - or more usually for health and welfare decisions are made at best interests meetings - not involving a court.

My son has never had capacity - we don’t (yet) have health and welfare deputyship (hope to get it although they’re not easy to get) - so decisions ranging from who can see his records, whether he has sedation for bloods, when he has bloods, where he lives, whether I am allowed to video him are all made as best interests decisions

If daughter has pulled out then there needs to be a best interests decision made between social worker, care staff, medics etc - whoever is relevant for the decision. And fathers views should be sought as far as possible for each decision . Only if there was a disagreement would a decision have to go to the court of protection - although I don’t know how she relinquishes PoA.

Yeah she can pull out. The father will become directly the responsibility of the Court of Protection. Not a problem. Then the court will try and get a family member to act as the direct liaison to see to the day to day business of the father, if someone is willing to do that. Otherwise they'll get some sort of social worker to do it.

PoA are about financial dealings.
There is otherwise nothing between being sectioned or people making their own decisions.
There have been several court cases where Councils have gone to court to argue that it is better for people to go into care and they have always lost because adults have the right to make their own decisions.

My aunt aged 94 had Alzheimer's and couldn't do anything for herself. She had no children. I lived 30 miles away, was working full time and a single mum and I only visited weekly.
She refused to leave her home for 10 years so was never agreeing to going in to care.
Social Services provided care 3 times a day but I had to contribute out of her disability pension.

Firstly, a person deemed as vulnerable CAN be taken into care against their wishes, if they lack mental capacity, for their own sake or to protect others. Secondly, an Attorney (the daughter) is obliged to act in the best interests of the person for who she has the PoA, and not for herself. If she goes against the advice of professionals involved, then the Court of Protection could get involved. She can resign as Attorney, but, if there is no other Attorney named, then the Office of the Public Guardian will take over, and it will be VERY expensive. Being an Attorney for someone means you need to handle their affairs (either Health and Welfare or Property and Affairs, or usually both) but it doesn't mean that you actually have to physically look after them. You say there are no other relatives, but can someone give the daughter a bit of support to carry on her duties as Attorney? If not, then approach the local Carers' Association or the Alzheimer's Society (if dementia is the problem) to find a way through this sad situation. Having had PoA for late husband, and now for father, I know it can be very time-consuming and onerous, quite apart from the emotional component. Good luck!

When I completed the POA form it advised strongly to name a substitute just in case of situations like this. Now that the daughter does not want to do it, whoever takes over will have to go to court and it costs unfortunately. You need professional advise on this now. For anyone out there thinking of doing a POA on the Martin Lewis website, it’s half price for this month so we’ll worth thinking about.

It depends which PoA she has. One deals with financial matters and there is another one which deals with health issues.

mcem- I hope you have found the answers to your questions. I would suggest, as you are in Scotland, asking either the nearest sheriff's court or the registrar if they can clarify the situation for you.

This is why it is better to have more than one person having LPA, in my case I have three.

The best thing to do is go to CAB and ask for advice. I am pretty sure that in a case like this the Court of Protection would take over and SS are the people to get the ball rolling.

If there was no one to take care of or act for the Father then ss would have an obligation to step in.

My father was induced to go into care for respite. Just two weeks. To build him up and get him right. At the end of two weeks he just stayed on. It was another week or two before he realised he’d been there longer and by then he was reasonably settled.

I think doctors and SS can oblige Father to go into care if he’s a danger to himself and or/others - if he’s likely to burn the house down or become violent to a carer. Otherwise, if all are agreed, 24 hour care can be provided at home (theoretically) can’t it?