Council Tax for State Pensioners

Doodledog I agree with some of biglouis's post, in that it is not the fault of our generation(s) if previous governments have not taken care of the economy and NHS. They had access to demographic and economic data, and it was their responsibility to manage the budgets so that there would be no deficit down the line. Instead they took pension holidays and continued with the a system of NI that they are now saying was inadequate

Far wiser, imo, would be to admit the birth/longevity have changed causing the need for a better system. Poor planning.

I agree with some of biglouis's post, in that it is not the fault of our generation(s) if previous governments have not taken care of the economy and NHS. They had access to demographic and economic data, and it was their responsibility to manage the budgets so that there would be no deficit down the line. Instead they took pension holidays and continued with the a system of NI that they are now saying was inadequate, and are pulling out all the stops to tell us that this is because of generational inequality, that we should feel guilty and that young people should resent us. People have, (whether with good grace or not ) paid what was asked of us. It was never up to us to understand whether that would be enough, and even if we'd wanted to pay in more there has never been a mechanism by which we could do so. This means that it is the responsibility of the government to fix the problem, not the taxpayer, although we might all have to pay more to plug the gaps that mismanagement has created.

What I do not agree with is bl's approach to dealing with that, ie by clawing back as much as she can. As is well documented on here I don't approve of means-testing, but I absolutely believe that we should all pay whatever taxes are necessary to ensure that those unable to be 'economically active' are looked after, and that those who have more income (from whatever source) should pay more than those with less. Pensioners are probably a mixed category, in that many are no longer earning, but are all using services, so should be charged via taxation of some kind, unless there is a reason why they are unable to do so, at which point they start to get payback for the contributions made over the years. If that point never comes, so be it - it's a good position to be in.

Perhaps you could clarify that biglouis. You appear to accept that, as one of today’s pensioners, what you have paid in over your working life will not meet the cost of your pension (and any benefits you receive, being disabled, and medication and NHS treatment). Why, then, are you so determined to claw back all you can in whatever way you can? And what is this tremendous contribution you have made to the community?

What some people don’t seem to realise is that it is not what they have paid in NI and taxes which they are the. “drawing on” in their retirement or old age, but what is being paid today by the working population and taxpayers of all ages (including most of us)

What you are describing here is a Ponzi system - one of the most corrupt and unstable of all organizational structures.

Its not the fault of todays pensioners that what they paid in over their working lives will not meet the cost of their pensions. Rather it is the result of poor forward planning by governments. These governments did not put a better system in place when they realised there was a demographic timebomb on the horizon.

People like myself can only see what they have put in over the years and the tremendous contribution they have made to the community. I also see the example set in that sleazepit called westminster. That makes me all the more determined to claw back what I can in whatever way I can.

volver3

I'm proud to pay more tax than the next person because life has been good to me and I can afford it, and because it shows that I live in a country full of people who look after the people who can't look after themselves.

Mainly.

... I live in a country full of people who look after the people who can't look after themselves.

Mmm. I have concluded that every party, big or small, wants the best for the people in our country. They differ in what they think is "the best". The exception is the Conservative Party, whose members and voters only want the best for themselves. I don't think that will ever change.

Callistemon21

^Pragmatically, they could move to a home they can afford to heat and maintain^

It's not always feasible. In fact, often it is impossible to find anywhere.
Builders are not building modern bungalows which have enough space and a small garden because they are not cost-effective. Older properties are not always well-insulated or well-maintained and need money spending on them.
Not everyone wants to live in a retirement village.

I do understand that. But that is one of those difficult to solve problems. I don't think it can mean your maintain the assets of all the rich by paying them benefits or not charging them Council Tax.

I would think it is only a very small minority that can afford to live in a retirement village but there are other options.

Lilyflower

“ think that help should be targeted. Why should multi millionaires get a huge freebie just because of age? “

The multimillionaires are already paying most of the income tax collected and we are all living off their industry and enterprise.

Really, the politics of uninformed envy bemuse me.

Sunak has paid 22% tax on his vast income. How does that make him someone "paying most of the income tax"?

If you are in an income band that takes 5% of income out of the country's GDP, then you should be in the tax band that pays 5% of the taxes. If you are in the income band that takes 50% of income out of the country's GDP, then you should be in the tax band that pays 50% of the tax. Of course, multimillionaires will pay most of the tax. They take the most out of the country. It really is simple maths.

Pragmatically, they could move to a home they can afford to heat and maintain

It's not always feasible. In fact, often it is impossible to find anywhere.
Builders are not building modern bungalows which have enough space and a small garden because they are not cost-effective. Older properties are not always well-insulated or well-maintained and need money spending on them.
Not everyone wants to live in a retirement village.

Norah

^Home Responsibilities Protection was only introduced in 1977.
Many of the women who have missed out had their children before then.^

This is lost on many people. Refuse to understand.

Apologies Norah - it was 1978!!

Germanshepherdsmum

There are a lot of old people who are asset rich due to the increased value of their crumbling old, far too expensive to heat or maintain, family house but very cash poor, and too old to be able to move. Should they be denied help because on paper, but not in reality, they are rich?

Pragmatically, they could move to a home they can afford to heat and maintain. I'm not sure why you think we should keep people asset rich.

Back to the OPs topic. I do not think abolishing Council Tax for those of SP age is a good idea. I have always thought that paying Council Tax Support to low-income pensioners was the wrong thing to do. It would be better to increase the Pension Credit (and other benefits where applicable) by enough for them to pay the Council Tax or at least a proportion of it.

People should have agency when it comes to democracy. It must be difficult to feel you have that agency if you are not contributing.

I have been reading an article in the Economist (£) about Britain's tax take "getting bigger but not better". Both the Conservatives and Labour bring in unthought-through taxes where the tax breaks end up giving money to those they want to take it from and taking it from those they want to give it to. I believe that some/many benefits don't give help where they intend to either.

So, if Pensioners don't pay Council Tax, will they lose their votes for the Councillors? It seems like the reverse of the old American colonists' cry of "no taxation without representation". If the older generation does not pay Council Tax, wouldn't it be fair for the younger generations to shout "no representation without taxation"?

^Home Responsibilities Protection was only introduced in 1977.
Many of the women who have missed out had their children before then.^

This is lost on many people. Refuse to understand.

Daisymae

Philippa111

Some women , who were single parents in the 60's and 70's now get less than a full state pension because they were looking after their children and not working and paying a stamp.

It was not made clear to these women at the time that their pension would then be less. Very unfair.

So how is a person who gets a state pension of under £600 supposed to pay 25% of their income, for a single occupancy, on Council Tax and survive on the rest?

I do think that at least it should be a 50% and not just 25% reduction for a single person. Perhaps the amount a person pays should be related to their overall income in a year? A kind of means test.

Not all pensioners are as well off as most of the people here.

I believe that women who looked after a child under 12 would have received State Pension Credits?

Home Responsibilities Protection was only introduced in 1977.
Many of the women who have missed out had their children before then, or at least it was only applicable partway through.

It meant a stamp was paid for the at home parent until the child reached 19 if in full-time secondary education.

Ah but biglouis those selfish sponge like children next door are likely as not going to be your doctors, nurses or carers when you're too old to look after yourself. And I wonder if, when you were growing up, whether the people who lived next door to you resented paying their rates to pay for your waste collection?

Philippa111

Some women , who were single parents in the 60's and 70's now get less than a full state pension because they were looking after their children and not working and paying a stamp.

It was not made clear to these women at the time that their pension would then be less. Very unfair.

So how is a person who gets a state pension of under £600 supposed to pay 25% of their income, for a single occupancy, on Council Tax and survive on the rest?

I do think that at least it should be a 50% and not just 25% reduction for a single person. Perhaps the amount a person pays should be related to their overall income in a year? A kind of means test.

Not all pensioners are as well off as most of the people here.

I believe that women who looked after a child under 12 would have received State Pension Credits?

Business rates are also a tax deductable business expense.

You will only be liable to pay Business Rates if you have structurally altered your property in order to cater for your business. Using a spare bedroom as an office is not counted as a structural alteration. There are some very handy websites which will advise one how to avoid business rates.

Generally they only come into play if you:-

have customers calling to receive a good or service
employ people in the business
made structural alterations
installed machinery or equipment to produce goods

As you run a business from home do you pay business rates too biglouis? And do you expect to pay some CGT when you sell your house?

I have signed it. I know of people who have worked, get the full state pension, they have a tiny occ pen. They cannot get pension credit.
These people struggle, and I would like to see them helped. I would not get it as I have a state pension, and my pension from employment. I also have parachute money from my lump sum in case something goes wrong.
Some pensioners on the full state pension who cannot get UC, are in a worse financial position. Not all pensioners were able to save either.

Fleurpepper

And who do you think will pay your pension, and your needs in old age?

It should be that each working generation pays firstly for the education of the next generation, then when it is time to retire, the educated generation pay the pension for retirees. Unfortunately the notion of National Insurance, which would have worked very well if successive governments hadn’t regarded the income as ordinary taxation and plundered all the money for other means, like giving tax breaks to corporations and those who already have enough for a comfortable life.

Tax avoidance is not illegal but there are very few loopholes if you are on PAYE. Being saavy with tax avoidance loopholes is something every self employed person needs to know. Most of the information is publicly available, you just have to take the time to read and understand it. Or get a tax accountant. You would be surprised what you can claim for.

Most of the "money" I have was not made by buying a house cheap back in the 1960s, 70s or 80s and sitting on my backside waiting for it to grow in value. It was made as an older person learning to trade bitcoin (at the right time) and becoming self employed. Im not a natural gambler but I risked money I could afford to lose at the time.

Instead of whinging about being in shit jobs young people need to get off their backsides and improve their qualifications or look for gaps in the market. There is still money to be made - although not by trading bitcoin.

I'm proud to pay more tax than the next person because life has been good to me and I can afford it, and because it shows that I live in a country full of people who look after the people who can't look after themselves.

Mainly.

What some people don’t seem to realise is that it is not what they have paid in NI and taxes which they are the. “drawing on” in their retirement or old age, but what is being paid today by the working population and taxpayers of all ages (including most of us).
Paying as little in the way of tax as possible - presumably within legal parameters - is fine, presumably the (legal) tax system is geared accordingly. If is involves tax evasion then of course a criminal offence is committed.
Not sure why it should inspire particular pride however -taxation is not charitable giving which you can opt in our out of, but a legal obligation. It’s like saying “oh I pay all my bills” - …….and?

And who do you think will pay your pension, and your needs in old age?

At my time of life, having been financially ripped off by the system I employ every tactic I can to pay as little tax as possible and use every loophole. I take considerable satisfaction in that and certainly as much satisfaction as the virtue signaller upthread babbling about "young people".

While its true that different groups make different lifestyle choices it is wrong that any one group should have to subsidise another's choices. Growing old is not a "choice" - it happens to everyone regardless. So the argument about having to be looked after in old age is moot.

I agree, SueDonim (I think we live in the same general area) that tradespeople are much more likely to ask for a bank transfer than cash, and that suits me fine.