Council Tax for State Pensioners

M0nica

DaisyAnne The size of the economy is irrelevant. It is the ratio between wage earners and those claiming pension and benefits that is key. Evena rich country like Japan is struggling because 30% of its population are over 60, the highest proportion in the world. It isackenowledged that this is holding back the economy - and driving down the birth rate, thus exascerbating the situation.

A Japanese academic has even suggested that one solution to the economic stagnation of the Japanes economy might be to encourage older people to commit suicide. Japan does have a history of suicide being an honourable deed in some circumstances.

No, it isn't. It's the ratio between taxes (for simplicity, Maizie, if you are reading) and those of pension age.

We are not Japan. Why mention suicide? It is part of the culture of the Japanese. It is not part of our culture and never has been. Yes, we have an ageing population. But you make it sound like we are a people in the depths of an African desert, with no real economy and the need to breed enough children to keep us in our old age. Whereas we live in one of the richest, most educated countries.

We led that world into the industrial revolution. We had the trade routes, the raw materials, the talent and the skills. We lived through social changes and benefited from a stable government.

The Forth Revolution will need physical, digital, and biological skills. We have all these. Where we have built great feats of engineering in the past, we can now build for the future in other ways . We may not understand it all, but our children and their children will. We can enhance current education based on the progress we have achieved in the recent past. When we stop attacking them with petty name-calling, we can link with other countries, who share our history, to help us build our way forward.

We may want to change the way we pay pensions. But why are you thinking we must move pensioners into poverty? In the 1930s, plans were made that led us to changes for the entire country in the late 1940s. We became an inclusive society. We understood how good communities can work for the betterment of every person. We chose not to despise labour and laud wealth, but to see people as equals. Why, oh why, do you think we need to go backwards now?

The one thing the Conservatives got right (but then Labour has been saying the same thing forever) is that we need to grow the economy. To do this, we need a stable government. We have spent 13 years learning that this is not the Conservative forte. We have watched the Conservatives destroy, not build, and shrink rather than grow.

It isn't the poor who are the most important. It isn't the rich who are most important, and it isn't the middle who are most important. All are important. If everyone works to grow the economy, we can certainly afford pensions for those whose working lives are the ones on which our children build their future.

growstuff, we have the example of Japan, wherever government revenues come from, they are causing the country serious problems and leading to some people, and I doubt the academic who spoke out is alone, suggesting that the elderly population should cull itself.

Most of the money paid in state pension returns to the Treasury via direct taxation and/or the goods pensioners buy

Some, yes - how do you substantiate ‘most’ growstuff?

M0nica

DaisyAnne The size of the economy is irrelevant. It is the ratio between wage earners and those claiming pension and benefits that is key. Evena rich country like Japan is struggling because 30% of its population are over 60, the highest proportion in the world. It isackenowledged that this is holding back the economy - and driving down the birth rate, thus exascerbating the situation.

A Japanese academic has even suggested that one solution to the economic stagnation of the Japanes economy might be to encourage older people to commit suicide. Japan does have a history of suicide being an honourable deed in some circumstances.

You forgot the tax paid on assets.

M0nica

I am afraid I was born with feet of clay. I do not let ideas of social justice, and, do not get me wrong, I have all the social justice aspirations others have, get in the way of considering what is practical and possible, even if it means accepting that we cannot afford, all the things we would like to do and, at times, have to make hard decisions.

And a head which refuses to look at some facts.

M0nica

^The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.^

I totally disagree. there may well come a time when pensions can only be paid at the cost of neglecting other priority groups, children and health for example. There is only so much juice in a lemon.

If income tax had to go up to over 50p in the £1, for example to pay pensions. I think there might be a problem.

As I said, a Japanese Professor is suggesting elderly people should commit suicide to reduce the burden old people are on the state. And while it has been greeted generally with horror, there are a number of people who have said that this may need to be considered. In Japan 30% of the population is over 65.
www.firstpost.com/world/yale-professor-tells-japanese-senior-citizens-to-kill-themselves-to-deal-with-countrys-aging-population-12146522.html .

We should not exclude younger people in the UK making similar duggestions at a future date, if the cost of paying our pensions becomes too onerous.

No, most of the money paid in state pensions returns to the Treasury via direct taxation and/or the goods pensioners buy.

I'm not excluding younger people. They are the ones who would be affected by a rise in pension age and lack of money circulating in the economy.

There are other measures which could be taken before raising the state pension age, such as taxing higher rate taxpayers the standard rate on their pension contributions. It's estimated that at least £8 billion could be raised, if the state stopped the subsidy to higher rate taxpayers. The state could also tax people with unearned income on a par wit those who pay PAYE.

DaisyAnne The size of the economy is irrelevant. It is the ratio between wage earners and those claiming pension and benefits that is key. Evena rich country like Japan is struggling because 30% of its population are over 60, the highest proportion in the world. It isackenowledged that this is holding back the economy - and driving down the birth rate, thus exascerbating the situation.

A Japanese academic has even suggested that one solution to the economic stagnation of the Japanes economy might be to encourage older people to commit suicide. Japan does have a history of suicide being an honourable deed in some circumstances.

There is only so much juice in a lemon.

You do allow absolute rubbish to influence you M0nica.

I will use your illogical comparison of a lemon to a country's income/GDP. The world is full of very different size lemons. These lemons can grow and diminish depending on how they are tended by governments.

The last 13 years have somewhat diminished the size of our lemon. We have, therefore, less juice available or against which we can borrow other's juice, to expand our lemon once again. But we still have the sixth-largest lemon!

We can turn this around, but not by using the methods/ethos of the last 13 years. It is in the interests of growing our lemon to have a fit and healthy population that can a) tend the lemon and b) use less juice in the long run to uphold that healthy and fit population.

So, unlike the 13 years of this government, we may see prioritising the health of those tending the lemon as more important than giving those who have a large share of the juice and like to bet on the juice quantity, more juice

Granless That is the purpose of Council Tax Benefit. It reduces the cost of council tax for poorer pensioners. I am mpore than capable of paying my full council tax bill, and there is no justification at all for giving me any reduction, regardless of my age.

I don’t agree with abolishing council tax for state pensioners but I certainly think it should be reduced.

I am afraid I was born with feet of clay. I do not let ideas of social justice, and, do not get me wrong, I have all the social justice aspirations others have, get in the way of considering what is practical and possible, even if it means accepting that we cannot afford, all the things we would like to do and, at times, have to make hard decisions.

The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.

M0nica: I totally disagree. there may well come a time when pensions can only be paid at the cost of neglecting.... (whatever other items)

Agreed.

Note: Armageddon's near. M0nica isn't typically on my page.

The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.

I totally disagree. there may well come a time when pensions can only be paid at the cost of neglecting other priority groups, children and health for example. There is only so much juice in a lemon.

If income tax had to go up to over 50p in the £1, for example to pay pensions. I think there might be a problem.

As I said, a Japanese Professor is suggesting elderly people should commit suicide to reduce the burden old people are on the state. And while it has been greeted generally with horror, there are a number of people who have said that this may need to be considered. In Japan 30% of the population is over 65.
www.firstpost.com/world/yale-professor-tells-japanese-senior-citizens-to-kill-themselves-to-deal-with-countrys-aging-population-12146522.html .

We should not exclude younger people in the UK making similar duggestions at a future date, if the cost of paying our pensions becomes too onerous.

Germanshepherdsmum

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

No, the pension age doesn't have to rise. People possibly need to be prepared to pay more in taxes/NICs, but there is no logical reason why the current pension age can't be maintained.

Germanshepherdsmum

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

Well, I was absolutely exhausted. I had a long commute too on top of working 60 hours a week in an extremely stressful job and bringing up two young children on my own. There is absolutely no way I could have continued until my late 60s or 70.

BTW Some people worked full-time and didn't have anybody at home for any of the time. Somehow they still pulled home life together.

They paid income tax and NICs and thoroughly deserve their retirement and pensions. Society would have reached rock bottom, if such people couldn't enjoy a few years of health retirement before the grim reaper calls.

The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

You’re being rather nasty to Norah, growstuff. It may be that the present sp system becomes unsustainable and that NI payments are reduced with the intention of people making their own pension arrangements.

I think somebody who has not experienced what it's like to be exhausted from work after 40+ years and then supports raising the state pension age is pretty nasty.

I did not say I supported pension age going up.

I said I feel logically, by numbers, it's going to have to happen.

The pensions system, as it exists, is not sustainable.

BTW, Someone must be at home pulling life together if a family has a person who works 10-12 hr days, going straight to nights in self employment/ business building.

Germanshepherdsmum

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

The major issue isn’t for professional staff though, it’s for people whose jobs involve a lot of manual labour, because their bodies literally wear out. It’s a very rare ward based nurse who is physically able to work beyond their mid sixties for example because so many develop back, neck, shoulder and joint problems.

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

Not everyone who has worked 40 years feels exhausted and many people now work past retirement age because they want to (and some work on because they need to).

i can quite understand that someone who is working beyond 40 years because they want to, will find it difficult to realise that others, for health reasons may not be able to.

But we also need to realise that a larger and larger amount of money is needed to meet the payment of these pensions - and that money has to come from a smaller and smaller workforce.

When pensions were introduced, on average, people only lived 7 years beyond the retirement age. Now it is 20 years and rising. Then we had a rising population where the percentage of pensoners to work force was quite low, now a larger and larger proportion of the population is over 60.

In Japan, which is the country with the highest proportion of old people in the world, someone has recently suggested that when people reach a certain age, they should be encouraged to commit suicide, for the sake of the country, to reduce the burden the cost of paying pensions is putting on younger people and the country's finances.

It is all very well to want to increase pensions, and not increase pension age, plus all the other support we give older people, but is it fair to put such a burden on our children and grandchildren?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Why did they start the payment into the Workplace Pension at 22. I love the fact that Australia starts at 17?

Another drawback (or not) is that you can withdraw from your superannuation fund at any time if you are suffering hardship, there is no lower age limit.
People did that when times were difficult during Covid lockdowns when there may have been little work.

DaisyAnne

Having just written about the Australian system (above) what are the drawbacks to us moving to such a system as long as it is properly done?

The Australian system relies on very large compulsory contributions by employers. Business owners have to pay super for even casual, itinerant employees such as backpackers.

All employees are covered by the superannuation guarantee. It applies to full-time, part-time and casual workers
business.gov.au/finance/superannuation

Add in holiday pay for all workers, casual and part-time too, plus a high minimum wage and this shows why prices, particularly for food, have risen rapidly over the last few years in Australia.

I know you are not a party member GSM but you seem to be a strong supporter.

I’m not a party member Daisy. Just a voter.