Dutch Election

Totally agree Dickens

We also need to be able to voice any concerns we may or may not have without being labeled as racist or far right.

Yes Dickens you are absolutely right.

Witzend

*Dickens*, it’s all very well to hold classes on the constitutional rights of women, but cultural attitudes have often been ingrained over a lifetime, and I doubt that they’re often really going to change after a few hours of well-meant teaching.

I quite agree.

And those cultural attitudes were clearly not going to change for, at least, one of the young men interviewed who attended the classes, who maintained his 'cultural stance' about women.

I don't know how widespread the problem is, but it certainly has caused problems in Germany (hence the classes).

And this has to be acknowledged. It has to be talked about because to ignore it as a problem and deem any debate on the matter xenophobic simply provokes a backlash. It may be a very small minority who maintain their rigid cultural position - but we don't know, because we don't talk about it.

Back in the 60s I had a Turkish boyfriend - he was a great admirer of Kemal Atatürk, the reforming first president of the Republic of Turkey (who pushed through reforms granting suffrage and inheritance rights for women). When I met his family, they made it abundantly clear that they did not approve of my 'western' ways. They spoke little English so weren't able to articulate their concerns, but the disdainful shakes of heads, lowering of eyes when I spoke, and glares when they thought I wasn't noticing, spoke volumes. We eventually split up but kept in touch on and off throughout the years He eventually married a Catholic girl who had renounced the faith, and most of his family disowned him. They, the family, lived narrow insular lives, never integrating, only learning sufficient English to 'get by'; the younger women (sisters) were allowed to work, but only in servile jobs where they had little opportunity to absorb 'western ways' and only until they were married - one of them to a cousin.

Just a small snapshot of a personal experience. Did it matter? Does it matter if people live side by side, each with their own rigid culture? Maybe it doesn't - until there is an 'event' that draws both sides to oppose each other, and we have what are called "clashes" which hit the headlines, and then all hell breaks loose.

We need to talk about these issues, and we also need to dispel myths and misconceptions, too.

Forgot the link

twitter.com/edwinhayward/status/1658588996497203203

I meant to add that our governments have allowed our infrastructure to degrade and the far right have used that to prey on people's fears by demonising immigrants as being responsible for the shortcomings of the infrastructure.

For those of you who can access twitter, this is exemplified by this Leave advert run during the referendum campaign, which blames our infrastructure deficiencies on uncontrolled immigration.

Galaxy says that governments have ignored the concerns of citizens, but you have to wonder what is influencing those concern..

Another clap for Terribull’s post. People like Geert Wilders, Donald Trump and others collect votes because they oppose some of the nonsense put out by out of touch governments- not because they are intrinsically good people . They oppose one particular thing that people have strong feelings about and voilà, they get voted in. Dangerous but totally understandable.

I'm inclined to agree with those who have said the Gert Wilders of the world is what a country gets when they don't listen to the voices of the "ordinary" citizen. Like The Netherlands we are heavily populated and we can't pretend that our finite infrastructure can support huge swathes of people year on year, when it can't even look after our own citizens, there are over 1 million people on the council waiting list, and yes I know that is down to Thatcher selling of council houses, but we are where we are, so if we can't house our own people adequately, just where are the wave upon wave of migrants expected to live. Each successive government promises they will embark on a massive building programme, but they never deliver, hamstrung no doubt by loads of red tape which they never seem to be able to cut through. I believe we would have to go back to the time of McMillan to realise the sort of number of house building our current crop of politicians can only dream about, when of course there was a significantly smaller population. No one seems to know what the actual population figures are right now , they seem to differ daily.

It's not just houses, though, is it? It's the crumbling of the whole of our infrastructure because we've had successive governments which are ideologically opposed to investment in the public sector, expecting 'markets' to supply the shortfall. But 'markets' aren't interested in contributing to the needs and well being of the population through comprehensive forward planning and co-ordinated initiatives to supply those needs. They are only interested in making profits for their shareholders.

I saw this on another website yesterday and thought it was interesting. It is from the foreword by Lord Harrington to a government commissioned report on foreign Direct Investment

“I have formed the view during this process that capitalism has changed. Gone is any residual view that government shouldn’t use taxpayers’ money and other resources to assist private companies in investment decisions. Often this position comes with a fear that civil servants and ministers alike will try to pick winners, and fail, or that it will manifest as companies with ‘begging bowls’ at government’s door, asking for money when they would have invested anyway.

The reality is that many of our competitors chase investments via their industrial strategies backed by substantial government support.They identify which ‘races’ they want to be in, which sectors and sub-sectors they have a competitive advantage in, and how they are going to attract the finest businesses in the world to their country.

While this only covers industrial strategies it makes the point that other governments actually have strategies and are prepared to fund businesses that they think will 'fit' with their strategies.

Good post Terribull

Galaxy

If those MPs are talking a different language to their constituents eventually people stop listening and look elsewhere.
And when it happens those 'elites' go hold on what happened?
Just like the group of women at the tennis club I was at the day after the referendum results 'But I dont know anyone who voted Brexit' they said. Well no of course you dont.

This, exactly.
And when governments stop listening and others live in their own comfy bubble, this is what you get, political extremists from both ends get into power.

maddyone

TerriBull
What a good post. Thank you for mentioning the problems that farmers are having in Holland that I mentioned earlier. I’m unsure of the exact problem but I believe that farmers are one of the groups that supported Geert Wilders.
I totally agree with your post. Thank you for taking the time to write at length about this.

I agree, good post Terribull

If those MPs are talking a different language to their constituents eventually people stop listening and look elsewhere.
And when it happens those 'elites' go hold on what happened?
Just like the group of women at the tennis club I was at the day after the referendum results 'But I dont know anyone who voted Brexit' they said. Well no of course you dont.

For many those political elites ( not a phrase that describes it accurately but I get the gist) are both parties.

"My perception is if we didn't hear so much from political elites, people who are removed from the problems that ordinary people face, there would be a fair chance that the Gert Wilders of this world would disappear into the ether."

Well we vote in the political elites and most MPs have meetings in their constituencies and have email addresses so constituents can let them know what they think. I've sent several emails to my MP and always got a reply. I think many people prefer to complain on social media than actually so something about making their views known to their MP. We've had a Conservative govt for 13 years so if they don't represent your views, vote them out. fwiw Davos is a World Economic Forum not a climate action forum, it's 2024 theme is "From Lab to Life: Science in Action" Not that I disagree about the private jets though, perhaps RyanAir or EasyJet could fly them in!

Dickens, it’s all very well to hold classes on the constitutional rights of women, but cultural attitudes have often been ingrained over a lifetime, and I doubt that they’re often really going to change after a few hours of well-meant teaching.

TerriBull
There are people who know ( roughly) the population: sewage plant operators. It’s the one fact of life that we all have to do: use the toilet.

What has happened in Holland is simply an indication that immigration is not just a problem for the UK.

But the problem is so enormous and so challenging that it needs - as someone upthread pointed out - a co-ordinated international response.

And, above all, it needs a discourse that is not dominated by misinformation, lies and hype from either Right or Left.

The root causes of migration in this century need to be addressed, as do the consequences of it. And unless both are acknowledged and dealt with, the Geert Wilders of this world will increasingly dominate the landscape. Wilders holds extreme views, and people should be aware that, though they (Wilders and his like) might appear to be speaking for the so-called 'silent majority', extremists are usually extreme in all their solutions to economic and social problems. Some - less fortunate - might find themselves targeted at a later date if they become a 'problem' for government or the State.

TerriBull
What a good post. Thank you for mentioning the problems that farmers are having in Holland that I mentioned earlier. I’m unsure of the exact problem but I believe that farmers are one of the groups that supported Geert Wilders.
I totally agree with your post. Thank you for taking the time to write at length about this.

Kandinsky

Yes, rioters in Ireland being called ‘lunatics & hooligans’ & accused of bringing shame on Ireland.
Nothing said about the lunatic who tried to kill innocent women & children.

Yes. Well said.
Not that I agree with rioting, I don’t.

Like others have posted on this thread, I was under the impression that much of the discontent in The Netherlands was apropos of farmers, sometimes of many generations, being forced to sell up and they had as a result galvanised themselves into a political movement. Although scanning through the election results and I can't see much mention of that.

I think I also read that even more so than England, The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe with all the problems of dire shortage of housing that we are suffering from here.

I think it's very regrettable that Gert Wilders has won a resounding number of seats, his rhetoric is appalling, for example he collectively labelled "Moroccans" as scum a nation rich in culture, one only has to loo the legacy the Moors left in Spain to realise their considerable talents. That is the problem with attaching any blanket labels to a race or ethnicity, they won't be all of anything. I believe the human race are a mix of strengths and weaknesses, good and bad. It makes no more sense to attach a pejorative label to one race than it does to assume that boat loads of people heading to our shores will be made up of doctors and engineers or other talents who may be an asset to our country. Sure! among their numbers there could well be people who would be a great asset, equally, there could be those who would seek to do us harm. How many times, after the event, have we heard that a suspected bomber , recently arrived in the country, was a person on the radar of the Intelligence services.

I'm inclined to agree with those who have said the Gert Wilders of the world is what a country gets when they don't listen to the voices of the "ordinary" citizen. Like The Netherlands we are heavily populated and we can't pretend that our finite infrastructure can support huge swathes of people year on year, when it can't even look after our own citizens, there are over 1 million people on the council waiting list, and yes I know that is down to Thatcher selling of council houses, but we are where we are, so if we can't house our own people adequately, just where are the wave upon wave of migrants expected to live. Each successive government promises they will embark on a massive building programme, but they never deliver, hamstrung no doubt by loads of red tape which they never seem to be able to cut through. I believe we would have to go back to the time of McMillan to realise the sort of number of house building our current crop of politicians can only dream about, when of course there was a significantly smaller population. No one seems to know what the actual population figures are right now , they seem to differ daily.

Climate change is one of the factors that are forcing populations from sub Saharan Africa for example to up sticks, but repressive governments and lack of human rights I imagine is what forces most to leave their respective lands.

On the subject of climate change, a recent report stated that the richest 1% account for more carbon emissions than the poorest 66%. This is another area that I think so many are sick to death of being lectured to by the very people who make up the 1%. Why for example does that ridiculous talking shop take place at Davos every bloody year, with the private jets parked up great solid numbers, what do they achieve and if those people were serious about climate change,well then walk there! emulate some of the humility of pilgrims on their way to Santiago de Compostela, or alternatively shut up! Conversely, maybe all the nuisance element of Just Stop Oil/Extinction Rebellion could galvanise themselves to some effect, instead of holding up people going about their day to day working lives/ going to hospital appointments, demonstrate to those who do nothing but virtue signal and disable their private jets somehow blow them up whilst they are stationary on the runway, that would be good

My perception is if we didn't hear so much from political elites, people who are removed from the problems that ordinary people face, there would be a fair chance that the Gert Wilders of this world would disappear into the ether.

He even looks like Trump .......

Yes, rioters in Ireland being called ‘lunatics & hooligans’ & accused of bringing shame on Ireland.
Nothing said about the lunatic who tried to kill innocent women & children.

Many countries are moving to the right, to a more authoritarian government, even the EU is concerned about the level of migration. It is likely that regardless of the humanitarian aspect migration is likely to be restricted more in the future.
For the UK when enough of the EU nations oppose migration humanitarian laws will change regardless of international rules, the the issue will be less critical for us

And that's going to lead to more problems, again I was a defender if the BBC, if you searched on here you would find me defending them probably a matter of weeks ago. The new media of podcasts etc are now where people go, have you seen for example Joe Rogans 'viewing' figures.

The News outlets on TV are being coy about the perpetrator of this horrible incident which indicates he is a "cultural enhancer". FGS

I fully agree with this.