Dutch Election

The reporting of the Dublin incident is a perfect example of the problem. I could see last night something going on. I had to read between the lines of the most ridiculous reporting to find out what had happened. The children and the women stabbed barely got a mention, it was almost impossible to make sense of it.

I’ve asked again for this thread to be moved to News and Politics. This is the third time of asking.

Oreo
Global warning has had a huge affect on migration.
What angers me,is, there are ways to help these countries who are suffering from drought. But unfortunately the will is not there.
If the trillions of euros/pounds/ dollars had been put into place as demostated by this video these countries might have a channe
It would also help if something could be done to stop the Chinese factory farming ships that have destroyed the villages on the Atlantic coast.

I don’t know how long this video will run but I watched the whole film on www.google.com/search?q=documentary+%2B+The+man+who+held+back+the+desert&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:acf2872e,vid:QUAXBgYm1Ko,st:0

Oreo you may not think putting issues into a broader context is useful and you may feel that someone's humanitarian standpoint is "virtue signaling" however, I don't and I don't think I am alone in this. The Netherlands, in common with most western countries have a major problem. Falling birthrates with economies that are built on growth means there is a need for more labour than their own populations can supply. Developing countries have an over supply of labour together with economies that can't support the population, climate change is exacerbating the problem. Most countries use legal immigration to solve their labour shortages (just like we do) but unfortunately they don't always fund the infrastructure to support these additional workers and that has a knock on effect with local communities and because the immigrant work force often "looks different" or speaks a different language or has different cultural norms, they become targets for racism. People can either try to understand the problem or they can see the immigrant people as the problem. I choose to see the former not the latter. If people choose the latter then they vote for people with racist attitudes, like Wilders, if Wilders put his racism into language which "seems" more acceptable, then more will vote for him. That's why IMO populist politics is so dangerous, it appeals to the worst in people not the best but it's clothed in a "well this is what people think, isn't it?" so I speak for the people POV.

Unless they polled every one of the rioters how would the Police know that they were far right ?

Are they making assumptions?

There are several reports on social media about the ethnicity of the person with the knife, the police have gone out of their way to say that the person had lived in Ireland for 20 years and had Irish citizenship.

Unfortunately unrest is simmering in many countries at the moment.

Good post Oreo.

I actually started the thread to ask about why Geert Wilbers has been so much more successful in this election than in previous ones in Holland. I have always thought the Dutch to be a very tolerant race (not sure race is the right word, but you know what I mean.) My experience of Dutch people is that they are generally friendly, tolerant, and accepting of others. So what has happened? I did see a report about farming, and it was claimed the current government are contemplating buying up houses and farms forcibly in order to use the land to achieve a net zero target. Maybe they are wanting to use the land for more wind farms or solar farms. I thought someone on here might know a bit more about that. Whether or not he’s been elected because of high immigration I’m not sure, but again, maybe someone else knows more.

Whitewavemark2

kandinsky

Although you may think that we are poles apart on this issue, there is something we have in common, and that is the recognition that migration across the world is/will becoming an existential crises, for what ever reason.

So assuming that you agree that the U.K. is also part of the world community, then surely there must be a way that both left and right can agree on how to manage world migration as the world heats up and some parts of the world will be impossible for human life to exist.

What does the world heating up have to do with this particular thread?
Answer: zilch.
It’s also easy guff to say as you do in another post that you treat any immigrant like a family member, the fact is that you don’t have to, it’s just virtue signalling.
There is a real problem with immigrants coming here, there and everywhere ‘for a better life’ when it impacts the citizens of the country they end up in.Governments everywhere need to take note.
Any woolly well meaning phrases used like ‘world community’ and ‘left and right getting along’ just don’t cut it!

Whitewave you use the term far right quite a lot. Anyway, I’ve seen it reported that there are riots in Dublin, but I thought it was following some children being stabbed whilst waiting to go into an after school club. It’s an absolutely abhorrent thing to do, but I’m unsure why it is the far right who are rioting. Whoever the far right are in Ireland. The Dublin police have ruled out terrorism as I understand it, so I’ve no idea who is rioting or why.

Or perhaps you are talking about the way it has shot up since Brexit - little clue there!

Galaxy

That is currently not the situation and yet we are having enormous problems, it might be better to deal with the current issue. Because it is going to be really unpleasant. As Dublin is demonstrating.

I notice that it is the far right in Dublin that are causing the riots.

Are you distinguishing between immigrants coming to the U.K. for employment etc? As these are entitled to do so under U.K. law, and in fact encouraged by the government, business etc.

Asylum seekers which represents a minuscule amount of the overall immigration come here under international law.

Are you talking about both types?

That is currently not the situation and yet we are having enormous problems, it might be better to deal with the current issue. Because it is going to be really unpleasant. As Dublin is demonstrating.

kandinsky

Although you may think that we are poles apart on this issue, there is something we have in common, and that is the recognition that migration across the world is/will becoming an existential crises, for what ever reason.

So assuming that you agree that the U.K. is also part of the world community, then surely there must be a way that both left and right can agree on how to manage world migration as the world heats up and some parts of the world will be impossible for human life to exist.

loopyloo

Nanny 8
Where is here? Is it Australia?

Yes, nanna lives in Australia, as does my daughter.

My DD tells me it can be difficult to get a GP appointment, resulting in queues at A&E.

Sounds familiar?

I imagine anyone entering the country, legal or otherwise, sees a doctor quite quickly though, and gets treatment if required.

This country is way too soft on this issue, & nothing will ever change. We’ll continue to welcome the world & his mother no matter how much strain this puts on our country.
The left here think Nigel Farage is a far right extremist, when he’s really just a Tory who speaks his mind. Meanwhile, while the left are busy not watching a TV show because he’s in it, the Netherlands are voting in Geert Wilders, who, I’d bet, most Farage haters haven’t even heard of.

God help us when Labour get in next year.

Nanny 8
Where is here? Is it Australia?

Housing is a big and growing problem here but the government in its wisdom (or not) has opened up the floodgates for migrants. We are wondering where they are actually going to put them. There are not enough schools, not enough doctors, not enough houses as it is but, hey, who cares when you are a rich politician ? I am not speaking of refugees, just plain old migrants coming from Europe, Africa, Asia for a ‘better’ life.

My attitude towards immigration can be summed up in a number of points.

It is as old as the human race has existed. Without migration, we would all still be milling around on the African continent.

In modern times, the capitalist economic system requires labour, which often can only be fulfilled by immigration.

People migrate for myriad reasons which change over time, but have always migrated away from war, persecution, and hunger.

Our economic system is exploitative of the worlds resources, resulting in the current existential crises of climate change.

We must expect to see migration increase as a result of the damage we are causing.

But given what will be a dramatic and sudden increase as the world continues to heat up, this needs to be managed on a global scale , because without this management chaos and inhumane policies will ensure that we will witness suffering on a scale never before witnessed.

So I don’t think this can be managed entirely at state level, it is too big a phenomenon.

But at a personal level, I will never agree to treat people less than I would be willing to treat members of my own family. I simply cannot as a human being inflict disproportional suffering on another human being, it makes me less of a person.

The last point, which really needs hardly to be made is that it is very easy to muddle xenophobia and the most unpleasant form of racism into the mix, which is the danger I see when individuals like Wilders enter the debate.

Crikey. As I am a dyed in the wool centrist that should say

I dont think Wilder speaks for me but then again the left of which I am/was a part dont speak for me either, I feel I have as much in common with them recently as I do with the far right. And aside am a died in the wool centrist I cant even imagine how those slightly right of centre feel.

I am a member of the "general public" and I agree that migration is a problem that needs to be addressed by all countries. I don't agree with hard right populist politics and I don't think the Suellas or the Wilders speak for me. I don't agree with sending asylum seekers to Rwanda or that the issue is helped by having a poorly organised and ineffective immigration system, which is what we have had for several years. I don't believe in treating asylum seekers inhumanely, nor do I think they come here to bleed our social security system. I don't think the "silent majority" believes that either.

You are I think at least 15 years too late. You have politicians so divorced from what the general public think and I would put the media alongside that. It is quite dangerous when that is the case. I dont know a great deal about the Dutch situation but I imagine its a reflection of what has happened elsewhere. The left and the centre so divorced from the concerns of large sections of the population. I am not having a go at you whitewave, it's just so frustrating.

fancythat

*And that's the other part. Because 'open discussion' is mostly regarded as racist and xenophobic.*

Even having a discussion on this small site, soon becomes fraught with problems.

I think this is the first time since I joined this site, that finally, people can speak more openly about their opinions on immigration.
So far at least.
I presume it will depend into the usual problems, further on.

Whitewavemark2

Galaxy

I do wish people would listen when the general public say er we dont agree with this, what you believe is not what I believe, and calling us stupid is not going to make us amenable to your point of view.

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I assume you meant my post? If so you are not understanding what I am trying to say.

I think that immigration needs an international approach, and undoubtedly it is a phenomenon that is going to grow and grow, given both the flux the world is in and the disaster that is climate change.

However, I think it is an error to make the mistake that these facts should be associated with the hard right, whose primary motivation is nearly always racism with a populist agenda. It is so easy at the moment for these individuals of a hard right agenda to claim that they are the only ones with the answer. Indeed it seems at the moment the hard right populists have taken the issue as their own.

Those of the moderate right, centrist and left must recognise the issue that is not going away and tackle the problem at an international level, claiming the issue for moderate element and away from the fascist agenda. We must act to prevent this form of hard right nationalism becoming embedded in our politics.

Galaxy

I do wish people would listen when the general public say er we dont agree with this, what you believe is not what I believe, and calling us stupid is not going to make us amenable to your point of view.

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