Evolution of human menopause

Have to say I don't quite understand what they are saying. I can understand the data from the recent historical evidence they were using, but not sure how you extrapolate evolutionary change from it. Can't think prehistoric woman was sitting around worrying about her DiL really... I would have expected that the determining factor would have been about the survival chances of the offspring of older mothers.
Clearly I am missing something. Anyone with any insights?

Not yet but am thinking on't. What I think they should do, if possible, is look at what other animals who have a menopause have in common with us and see if that sheds any light on the subject.

I just feel it needs a Gary Larson cartoon:
"I asked her to get on with cutting up that bison and all she does is fiddle on her i-phone"..

Many hippy communities in the 1960's broke up in acrimony once children came along - every mother wanted the best for her own child. If a MIL and DIL both have babies at the same time, they may compete for attention from the men of the family for their own child for food, shelter and protection. Presumably, mothers regard their daughter's babies pretty much as their own, so no conflict arises. I am trying to work out how that would feed into human evolution. All I can think of is that communities where MIL and DIL did not have babies simultaneously would have a better chance of survival and would pass on the genes of.....what? What circumstances would produce this result? Older mothers continuing to have babies? Intergenerational living?
I find this very interesting but I cannot follow the mechanism. I hope they give us more facts.

Better article, imo, about what female human beings and killer whales have in common, published more than two years ago too!

And more here too about "the grandmother effect". Richard Dawkins needs to catch up.

I also found an article that talks about it in endocrinological terms of folicular depletion which is nothing to do with social / childrearing factors, but to do with the health of the ovaries at all stages. (I think, I got a bit lost.)

But if the age of the mother is the factor, why does it not apply to mothers having babies at the same time as their daughters?

Well I can see that there would be co-operation between mother / daughter in terms of child-rearing, I just can't see how there would be an evolutionary impact.

I ALWAYS KNEW I had killer whale affinities!
bags do you spend ALL your time researching obscure topics on the net[politely enquiring]

Dammit Jeni, I was depending on you for insight! I remember on a menopause forum someone asking when evolution would do something about the menopause. The reply was of course that evolution had no interest whatsoever in the menopause.

My daughters-in-law have cause to be grateful that I had an early menopause long before I met either of them.

Yes, jeni, every single waking moment except when I'm doing something else

Twitter is useful for finding things fast, depending who you follow. A lot (including this one) are from the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science.

Perhaps I'm faster reader than I thought I was.

I think in evolutionary terms that women would have understood the concept (pardon the pun) of their daughters' children before their sons. But maybe I read too much Jean M. Auel in my youth...
Thank you Bags I like an intellectual challenge on a Friday evening and it kept us going over dinner too...

Gosh, haven't read her for centuries!

Thinking.......

I somehow don't think that studying the exact patterns of reproduction in aquatic mammals is going to shed much light.
Humans have much more varied culture than whales. The similarity is the length of time it takes to successfully rear a child with a long developmental period. Beyond that - well it is parallel evolution, that's all. Elephants have a lot in common with us but do not happen to evolved the menopause.
Fascinating data about the MIL and DIL breeding simultaneously - but does this not just show that, in that particular splinter of human cultural experience the MILs and DILs helped each other out - practically, by breastfeeding each others babies and by helping with food growing and preparation maybe. Much tougher managing without such a support.
There is an obvious advantage in having a menopause if you are an intelligent species that can accumulate decades of valuable experience - as well as help with baby care, there is info about food sources, herbal medicines etc etc
Also - as we all know - having a huge number of pregnancies tends to have a detrimental effect on women. Even if they breastfeed a lot, by 45 it is quite easy to have had over a dozen full term births (not all would survive for a long period of breastfeeding) Maybe the menopause is just the way we have evolved to say "enough already" - focus your resources on the ones you have now - because it will be more than a decade before they can fend for themselves.

Nonsense. Inevitably there would be potential conflict between a daughter and her mother. As it is, it's hard enough to cope with a blossoming pubescent daughter and a withering menopausal mother. If you both have children at the same time …?

Yes, I know it happens and there is no conflict. That is where civilisation pops up its head, rather than nature red in tooth and claw.

Why inevitable conflict? Can you not imagine an extended family in which women are inter-dependent and if too many of them are heavily pregnant or recovering from birth, simultaneously, then things can fall apart? Like nobody feels up to chasing the flaming reindeer and milking the so and so's maybe?
The article does not explain what the cultural norms were in Finland at the time - In some cultures e.g. India a household is made up of Mil and DIL because women go to live with their husband's family.

OMG - it is a hell of a long article, the original
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1461-0248.2012.01851.x/full

Did you look at the other articles too, jess? I thought they were better. Also, I think the word 'conflict' is being used in a much more basic biological sense. The other articles are clearer on that too. I don't think much of the report of the
Finnish study.

Resident biologist is highly sceptical of the MiL/DiL conflict hypothesis, but thinks there's certainly something in the "grandmother effect" mentioned in one of the others.

It is odd that it doesn't apply to elephants as well.

Does anyone think the male menopause happens much, or is it just a myth?

Mid life crisis certainly exists - maybe sometimes called the male menopause. Do men have hormonal changes?